What would it take to change your mind?

[Edwardo Piet]

Well if you're talking fundamentalist then yes. But theist just means not deist believer right? As in a Christian or Muslim or whatever

I agree in the case of fundamentalism. As Dawkins says, the fundamentalism is never prepared to change his mind. No evidence would change his mind.

So yes if you're talking fundamentalists. But there are moderate theists (Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc) that will change their mind if certain evidence comes in.

So if by theist you mean fundamentalist then I agree. Because that's what fundamentalism is - having faith that will never change its mind.

But not all theists are fundamentalits, right? You can get Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc, etc that are moderate believers and will change their mind no matter how strong the argument against them.

thoughts?
Evf

[leo-rcc]

A Theist believes without a doubt a god or gods exist. Fundamentalism is a strengthening in their beliefs in the face of criticism or unpopularity. If someone really believes in a god, there is not a lot you can do about it. Giving arguments doesn't work, questioning their reasoning and making them think about it works a lot better.

[Dotard]

It is of my opinion that it has nothing to do with the strength of their convictions or faith. It is fear. Plain unadulterated fear.

They are simply scared poop-less over this concept of Hell. Their indoctrination instilled images of fire and brimstone and torture and the mere consideration that it may not be conjures up the thought "What if it is true? I'll burn for eternity." and they go for the Pascal's wager.

It isn't easy to say "I ain't scared of no ghost" when you're scared of a ghost.

I used to be ascared of some ghosts. Four to be exact, one was named Pinky, another was Blinky and I ferget the other two's names. They would always come around and chase me when I was in a maze eating dots. In the corners of the maze there were intellegence and reason. When I got to those the ghosts would change color and run from me. I would chase them.

Then my earlier indoctrination would kick in (what if? Pascal's Wager) and I turned and ran from the ghosts who would give chase again until I found that intellegence and reason again.

Oh wait....... I think that was a video game.

[Edwardo Piet]

Well yes an awful lot of people DO buy into Pascals patheitic Wager because they're fearful and they don't understand that its just as likely they will go to hell for anything else.

But some people actually DO believe it. How many is another matter. But out of the 6 billion+ people on this planet there are of course those who really DO believe there actually is a God. Besides I don't think every theist falls for Pascals wager. After all there are some theists who don't believe in heaven or hell or at least take them less literally. But other than that they are still Christian/Muslim etc.

And there must be those who buy into Pascals wager but also believe in God anyway. Surely there must be SOME - how many is another matter. As Dan Dennett I believe has basically said, most theists believe in belief in God. Not actually literally believe in God.

And I think Sam Harris has said that a lot more people out there actually really DO believe in God than most of us realize.

Perhaps they are not mutually exclusive? I mean perhaps if you believe in belief in God you can also change your belief by believing that you can choose your belief. If you want to believe in God because you are thinking the "what if?" of Pascals pathetic Wager, then perhaps if you BELIEVE that you can choose your beliefs at will then you actually can literally convince yourself of God? Because you can believe you can?

Perhaps even though you cannot choose your beliefs - if you happen to believe that you can then if you want to believe in God that can convince you that he actually exists. Because you believe that it can?

If that makes any sense?
evf

[CoxRox]

I've only read 'about' Pascal's Wager, not the actual book itself. I'm guessing he probably is appealing to people who are unsure what to believe. I'm sure he was clever enough to realise that you can't trick God (if he exists) and hedge your bets. I must admit that I probably am party to his wager in a way. I am very unsure if God really does exist, but I tend to still live my life as though I am sure he exists (well I try to). Does that make sense? (I don't do this out of 'fear', but more so 'hope').

[Edwardo Piet]

Well the thing is God is just as likely (or rather, just as very very unlikely indeed) to send anyone else to heaven as those who believes in him. Because scripture is not evidence of God nor what God wants or doesn't want if he exists.

You give yourself hope because there is nothing in scripture that gives evidence that God is good, neutral, or evil. Or that he, she or it exists at all.

At least as far as I know!!

[CoxRox]

Well the thing is God is just as likely (or rather, just as very very unlikely indeed) to send anyone else to heaven as those who believes in him. Because scripture is not evidence of God nor what God wants or doesn't want if he exists.

You give yourself hope because there is nothing in scripture that gives evidence that God is good, neutral, or evil. Or that he, she or it exists at all.

At least as far as I know!!

Sorry, I'm not following you here....

[Edwardo Piet]

I mean you need hope because there is no evidence - or from your point of view - at least satisfactory evidence. If you really believed you wouldn't need to hope would you?

I don't hope I have stuff that I already know I have for example.

And I don't hope there is or isn't no God because I already don't believe there is one.

Why would you need hope if you already believed?

Do you think the two aren't mutually exclusive - perhaps?

I think that would be more sliding back and forth between the two.

I don't see how I could hope there is no God when I don't believe there is one. I don't need to hope that there isn't or is a God - because I don't believe there is one.

[CoxRox]

Ok, I get you. Yes, you're right. I am not totally sure there is a God, but I see enough 'evidence' that there is a good chance there is a God, so I hope that this is indeed evidence and not my mind playing tricks.

[Edwardo Piet]

It could not be evidence and still not be your mind playing tricks I think. Because your mind might also think its evidence even if it isn't...

I believe.
evf