Bernie Sanders Rocks My World!

[Tiberius]

Indeed. I witnessed a rather curious conversation between Adrian_Hayter and another person about that person's live in situation. When that person explained that he or she was responsible for half the bills, but earned less than the other live in person, Adrian said that wasn't fair.

My point is, don't listen to people who talk about equality who have to append a 'but...' or 'except...'.

I don't append a 'but...' or 'except...'. I believe there is a fundamental difference between how individuals and couples share "equality", and how equality is handled by the government. Taking the example you gave, if I was living with a partner, and I was the main income earner, I wouldn't ask her to pay half the bills. I have the right to do that, because I care about her. Other people might insist she pay half the bills; and that is up to them. What this doesn't mean is that suddenly all main income earners must be forced into paying the bills by the government; it is an individual's choice, and should remain so.

It would only be equal if everyone took an across the board 80% pay cut. When will people get it into their heads that everyone earning the same amount of money (or limiting the amount you can earn) doesn't work? Economies fluctuate; people come up with services and use them to make profit. If you limit that, you take away any incentive people have for expanding on their ideas in the first place.

I disagree. And for the record, I am a strong believer in capitalism, but not at the expense of the poor and the middle class. When a CEO, ANY CEO makes more than the GDP of our poorest state, I see a problem with that. When CEO's run businesses to the ground and then get golden parachutes as they are shown the door, I have a huge problem with that. I believe in a fair wage for a fair day's work. I know of very few upper management people for whom this axiom is applied. I know of tons of middle class and working poor for whom this axiom is NEVER applied.

I don't see a problem with people earning lots of money. It means they have to give a lot more in terms of taxes, which ultimately helps the country. If a CEO runs a business into the ground, they should be accountable for it. The problem at the moment is governments aren't helping by bailing out big businesses that are failing. You can't have it both ways; you either let businesses fail, or you help them out (and give the CEOs the golden parachute). I take it from your statement about that being a "huge problem" that you were against the bailout then?

Indeed, I believe in a fair wage for a fair day's work too. I also believe the system at the moment is perfect for creating an objective measure of what that is. It is the minimum amount which a worker will work for. For some people, that amount is very small; for others, it is very large. For instance, a man with no education might be glad of the £5 an hour he earns working at McDonalds, but if I was asked to accept £5 an hour for doing research, or working at a security company, I would turn them down. In this respect, CEO's can earn quite a lot of money, and fairly. After all, they are running the company, and as long as all their employees are paid well (i.e. paid the amount for which they will work or more), then the money left over is put back into the company, and also into the CEO's pocket. A bad CEO might take all the profits, and then risk losing everything when the company goes bankrupt.

[Minimalist]

The working classes have already been hammered by these corporate whores you insist on defending, Adrian. What more do you want from them? Blood?

You are starting to remind me of this:

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."
— George Orwell

Oh...and btw,

http://apnews.excite.com/article/2010120...8DH80.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - Senate Republicans threatened Wednesday to block virtually all legislation until expiring tax cuts are extended and a bill is passed to fund the federal government, vastly complicating Democratic attempts to leave their own stamp on the final days of the post-election Congress.

The Republicans sure as shit know who holds their leash. So much for all this bullshit concern about the "deficit."

[lilyannerose]

No, I just believe in equality. It's a shame not many other people do.

How much of that money that goes to the corporations and rich holders comes off of the backs of those laboring in horrendous working conditions at barely supportable wages with very few workers' rights?

How can one call these profits off of the sweat and despair of the third world working class be measured and achieve the status of "equality?"

[Tiberius]

How much of that money that goes to the corporations and rich holders comes off of the backs of those laboring in horrendous working conditions at barely supportable wages with very few workers' rights?

Yet these workers still work, despite the conditions and wages? I put to you that they do so because they have balanced out the pros and cons in their head and come to the conclusion that this is the only work they can do which can support them. If they didn't reach this conclusion, they wouldn't be working there in the first place.

Corporations have to keep their workers happy, or their workers will not work. If all of their workers up and left one day, it would cause massive loses for the company, not to mention all the time it would take to find new workers / train them.

How can one call these profits off of the sweat and despair of the third world working class be measured and achieve the status of "equality?"

Equality does not mean everyone is the same; it means everyone is treated the same, regardless of their income, sex, gender, race, etc. As I said above, everything is a balance. If the workers feel that they aren't being paid enough for the conditions they work in, they can either petition the company for more money, or they can walk out and find another job. The fact that they stay suggests (at least to me) that the workers feel their pay is justified given their skillset, or that they cannot find work elsewhere and must therefore make do with what they have.

[Minimalist]

Yet these workers still work, despite the conditions and wages

WTF do you expect them to do? Go to their summer homes in Fiji instead? Do you have idea what is going on with the working classes? Maybe it is time for you to get out of college and see what is going on in the real world. You are in for a shock.

[DeistPaladin]

Adrian, I want to let you know I sympathize. I was once a libertarian, a stage that followed my conservative-Republican phase.

Libertarian lazzet-faire capitalism sound nice on paper, much the same way socialism does, but in practice it doesn't work out in the field like it does in the ivory tower.

Having been out in the real world, I've come to believe in regulated capitalism. Both government and business have their roles to play. Business generates wealth and government regulation keeps them honest.

And yes, the rich should pay higher rates of income tax. Those who benefit more from society should pay more for its upkeep.

[Tiberius]

And yes, the rich should pay higher rates of income tax. Those who benefit more from society should pay more for its upkeep.

10% of $1,000 is $100.

10% of $10,000,000 is $1,000,000.

When will you people take a math class and learn what percentages mean? In a flat-rate tax system, the rich pay more. It is equal, and it is fair, and it does exactly what you claim to want (it makes those who benefit more from society pay more!).

If you want a higher rate for the rich, then I put to you that you are an enemy of equality, since you want to treat people who are rich in a different way to people who are poor. I honestly thought we'd got this whole "equality" thing sorted out. We understand that just because whites oppressed blacks for years, doesn't mean blacks now have the right to oppress whites. So why do people find it acceptable to try and punish the rich, who have (admittedly) a long history of punishing the poor.

Move on people. We've left feudalism behind; we accept it was a mistake, and we're sorry about it. There is no need to punish the rich; they are people just like you and me, and if you really want to aim for equality, you need to accept that it doesn't just protect your ass; it protects the asses of everyone you despise.

[Ashendant]

Except the rich are left with 9.000.000 and the poor are left with 9.000, 9.000 might not be enough to survive(i don't live in america so i don't know the prices) while 9.000.000 is just too much cash for a person to recieve monthly

[lilyannerose]

'Tiberius' pid='107515' dateline='1291231115'

Yet these workers still work, despite the conditions and wages? I put to you that they do so because they have balanced out the pros and cons in their head and come to the conclusion that this is the only work they can do which can support them. If they didn't reach this conclusion, they wouldn't be working there in the first place.

I would pose the situation as being these people need to work to eat and further that there is no excuse for the working conditions many of these "third world" sweat shop laborers find themselves in. The fact that people lose the birthright of their dignity in order to have enough food to survive makes this current system socially evil.

Corporations have to keep their workers happy, or their workers will not work. If all of their workers up and left one day, it would cause massive loses for the company, not to mention all the time it would take to find new workers / train them

.

Do you understand that people do what has to be done to survive? Why should so many eke out a bare survival standard of life in order to support this economic system that puts them and their children to bed hungry so that, so say, Paris Hilton can globe hop for 24-hours to celebrate her birthday/

Equality does not mean everyone is the same; it means everyone is treated the same, regardless of their income, sex, gender, race, etc. As I said above, everything is a balance. If the workers feel that they aren't being paid enough for the conditions they work in, they can either petition the company for more money, or they can walk out and find another job. The fact that they stay suggests (at least to me) that the workers feel their pay is justified given their skillset, or that they cannot find work elsewhere and must therefore make do with what they have.

The level of inequality will not permit the opportunity for balance. There's no excuse for poor wages in order to enhance the life style of the few. Me, I like the idea that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[Jaysyn]

WASHINGTON (AP) - Senate Republicans threatened Wednesday to block virtually all legislation until expiring tax cuts are extended and a bill is passed to fund the federal government, vastly complicating Democratic attempts to leave their own stamp on the final days of the post-election Congress.

I'm actually happy about this, I can think of two extremely bad bills that won't get pushed through in this Lame Duck session. COICA & DREAM.

So, hold the line you mouth-breathers!