Cucumber Dildo

[Tiberius]

So now we're back to me asking you to come up with a logical argument for your position. Why don't you agree with treating animals as commodities?

[Skeptic]

So now we're back to me asking you to come up with a logical argument for your position. Why don't you agree with treating animals as commodities?

When an animal is treated as a commodity it is not done for the benefit of the animal. It boils down to empathy and compassion.

[Tiberius]

Right, but why should we treat animals with compassion? Have you met a lion or bear? They wouldn't do the same to you...

[Skeptic]

Right, but why should we treat animals with compassion? Have you met a lion or bear? They wouldn't do the same to you...

I see, so Fred & Rosemary West tortured, raped and murdered people so why should I treat other people with compassion?

If you don't want to treat animals with compassion that's your prerogative, I do so I will.

[Shell B]

Ugh, PETA. Fucking PETA. I seldom loathe a group so much and I love animals, including a select few humans.

Anyway, I see a lot of hoopla in here regarding animal rights and harming animals. There are a lot of different perspectives here and none of them are right or wrong. The problem really is when people try to force others to feel the same way. It doesn't work that way. That being said, I do believe there needs to be legislation on certain issues. Making omnivores stop eating meat should not be one of them. Myself, I think that critically endangered species should certainly be off the list of animals we are allowed to kill/consume. That is just my opinion, but I also have a deep loathing for PETA and anyone involved in the organization. I can appreciate the naked photos they post everywhere, but that is about the only good that fucking organization has ever done.

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Right, but why should we treat animals with compassion? Have you met a lion or bear? They wouldn't do the same to you...

Hmmm . . . that's a little subjective. Dolphins have been known to help people. Lions have been known to treat members of other species with compassion. With bears, it depends on the species, sex and age of the bear, but not many are the crazed killers people would have them as.

I see where you're going with this, but some animals are capable of compassion for other species.

[Autumnlicious]

Hmmm . . . that's a little subjective. Dolphins have been known to help people. Lions have been known to treat members of other species with compassion. With bears, it depends on the species, sex and age of the bear, but not many are the crazed killers people would have them as.

I see where you're going with this, but some animals are capable of compassion for other species.

And many are not capable at all. Which is his point -- it is an inconsistent measure of worth or value and is subjective up the wazoo. Kinda like Skeptic's rationale for "reducing suffering."

Much like sentience is a rather subjective and inconsistent "measure" that prompts the question, why should we care?

[Shell B]

And many are not capable at all. Which is his point -- it is an inconsistent measure of worth or value and is subjective up the wazoo. Kinda like Skeptic's rationale for "reducing suffering."

My reply was not meant to signify my agreement with Skeptic, as I find lifestyles like his border on fanatical. What I mean is that comparing animal compassion to human compassion is like comparing male compassion to female compassion. They are all the same things. We are animals; they are animals. Some of them are compassionate. Some of us are compassionate. It really has naught to do with the species as much as the individual animal. It seemed that he was implying that animals (apart from humans) are not compassionate, which was what I disagree with.

Much like sentience is a rather subjective and inconsistent "measure" that prompts the question, why should we care?

Sentience is really immeasurable except in humans. For all we know, even the smallest creatures are self aware. I agree it is completely inconsistent and subjective. The question of why we should care is also subjective. It is also too all encompassing, as we have seen clearly in this thread that people pick and choose what it is convenient for them to care about when it comes to animal rights. "Survival of the cutest" and all of that.

[Statler Waldorf]

I was actually eating a meat stick made from a deer I shot last fall when I read this post, now that's ironic.

[The Grand Nudger]

What did you do Stat, tell your fairy tales until the deer dropped dead from laughter? Speaking of deer, you ever gonna return to our ungulate thread?

[theVOID]

What's your point here? I'm not trying to change history...

Perhaps you misunderstood me... All I was saying was that the very practices you condemn as being immoral are essentially the same ones that were critical to the development of our species; The consumption of meat, cooking food, tool making for hunting, keeping animals etc were all solutions to selection pressures the likes of which lead to the deviation of our species from other apes - For you to be the product of such selection pressures, to owe your very existence to them and yet to condemn them, to call them immoral, is hypocritical in the very deepest sense.

If you were really concerned with minimizing suffering as you claimed then your moral arguments would be utilitarian ones, what you display through the course of your argument however are deontological judgements, you can't be making those moral judgements and still claim that you're working from some 'high ground' or objective measure of suffering, deonotolgical judgements are entirely reactionary and emotional, full of absolutes.

Possibly, depends on the severity of the suffering involved for both parties. If it's a case of testing on one monkey will definitely save one humans life then I'd probably find that acceptable however it's not so cut and dry.

It's more like 10 monkeys are used to develop a treatment that saves tens of thousands of people.

That makes no sense, since the damage has already been done what would be the point in my rejection of such medicines, I say again, I'm not trying to change history.

So you're happy to use the products of a practice that you find immoral because it's already been done? Would you live in a house built by child labour? Would you watch child porn? After all, the damage has 'already been done' in the very same way. Likewise, why don't you eat meat? The chicken has already been killed, Eggs have already been laid, Cows have already been milked - all of this has been done by the time products arrive at your door - Of course this is really because your values regarding your own health are stronger than your values regarding animal suffering, while you can sustain your diet as a vegan there are simply no legitimate alternatives to medicine and when it comes to your own existence your deontological judgement breaks down and it becomes rather clear than your concerns for 'suffering' and an equal consideration of the suffering of animals is a front.

I'm a vegan and I've not commanded you to do anything, nor have I tried to persuade you to do anything. If anything it's the other way around, I've merely responded to questions regarding my view points whereas others have tried to convince me that I'm somehow wrong to want to reduce suffering.

Except nothing you've said would reduce suffering, quite the opposite in most cases, you're using that as a shield to avoid admitting you are making emotional judgements. If you want to come out and say you've got no objective case for your values then that's fine, if you want to really talk about reducing suffering as a whole then we'd probably agree on a fair amount but as it stands you're coming off as judgemental in more than just an 'I don't like' sense.

BTW; These days I don't eat meat very much and would be guilt free if I went on a vegetarian (not vegan) diet.

There is a lot of suffering in the dairy and egg industries, which is why I don't consume them.

That took ages...

Just a point of clarity, that wasn't my quote, you got the tags crossed.

I love meat, eggs and milk, I had all 3 in an omelette last night.