Cucumber Dildo

[Skeptic]

I don't mind answering questions on my veganism so long as there's mutual respect but I'm not here to entertain truculence and suggestions such that not supporting animal testing means I should be willing to watch child pornography and other belligerence won't get a response from me.

[theVOID]

Sentience. You can't be sure that anything other than yourself has it but you can give the benefit of the doubt.

Why sentience? Isn't it a little arbitrary to say that the point at which a system can experience sensation is the point at which causing it harm is wrong? Why not draw the line at the ability of a system to be self aware? What about the point at which it can reason?

[The Grand Nudger]

I give the benefit of the doubt to vegetables. After all, they manipulate bees into pollinating them over other organisms. Hell, they manipulate us. It's terrible to consume them, alive in many cases.....

[theVOID]

I don't mind answering questions on my veganism so long as there's mutual respect but I'm not here to entertain truculence and suggestions such that not supporting animal testing means I should be willing to watch child pornography and other belligerence won't get a response from me.

All I did was expose a massive flaw in your reasoning that "since the damage has already been done what would be the point in my rejection of such medicines?", I simply had to swap out animal tested "medicines" with the products of other immoral activities, such as "child porn" and your entire argument crumbles.

So, I'll ask you again; If you are okay with using the products of practices you consider immoral so long as the damage has already been done, why aren't you okay with eating meat, sweat shop consumer goods, stolen goods or child porn? Does this not demonstrate that your line about "the damage has already been done" is little more than a mask for your own self-interest?

This is a legitimate question and I'd appreciate if you don't get defensive or avoid answering it.

[Skeptic]

I give the benefit of the doubt to vegetables. After all, they manipulate bees into pollinating them over other organisms. Hell, they manipulate us. It's terrible to consume them, alive in many cases.....

I already answered that, even if you did give the benefit of the doubt to vegetables, eating animals uses more vegetables than eating the vegetables directly since the animals use lots of energy just by being alive.

Not directed at you but I'm a bit bored of this now and I think I've been a good sport with answering so many questions so I'll say this...

You eat what you want.
I'll eat what I want.

You support the charities you want.
I'll support the charities I want.

If anyone has a problem with that I suggest you see a psychiatrist.

If anyone has a genuine question about veganism, or me being vegan in particular then I'll usually be happy to oblige.

For those who clearly just want to 'win an argument' that isn't there I suggest you find something else to do.

[The Grand Nudger]

I already answered that, even if you did give the benefit of the doubt to vegetables, eating animals uses more vegetables than eating the vegetables directly since the animals use lots of energy just by being alive.

You're getting bad info somewhere. But, as you said, we'll all do what we like and call it a day.

For those lurkers and others interested in this sort of thing:

Cows are wonderful, you see they have an organ called a rumen, which allows them to eat things which cannot be digested by human beings. A rumen is a "solar powered protein factory". With cattle, we can take land that is unsuitable for supporting human life (capable of supporting only grass), toss a few animals on it, and voila, suitable. Unfortunately, most cows are fed corn currently, turning this wonderful solar machine into a fossil fuel burner (and that's just what we need isn't it). Nonetheless, cows do not consume more food than they provide human beings with, because even in the case of corn, there is more nutritional value in the cow than all of the feed it was given. Good stuff really.

As a side note, dairy cows aren't fed corn because of the process involved. The milk would be toxic. Chickens probably come out on top as far as the calculus of protein, mainly because you dont have to kill the chicken, and it will lay many times more than it's own weight in eggs over it's lifetime. Of course then we have fish, which are pretty much a win-win-win. Pigs are of course a favorite of mine, but definitely devoid of the advantages of cattle, eggs, or fish (though they do process food wastes better than the other three). Of course, just about any type of livestock makes for great nitrogen capture, which is key, if you want to grow vegetables in anything even closing in on a sustainable system.

[Shell B]

I already answered that, even if you did give the benefit of the doubt to vegetables, eating animals uses more vegetables than eating the vegetables directly since the animals use lots of energy just by being alive.

Um, so, wait a minute, it is wrong to eat animals because it is a waste of vegetables? I'm dying here. Don't you veggie types want to save the animals regardless? If we don't eat them, more veggies will be used because they will keep living.

[Minimalist]

because you dont have to kill the chicken, and it will lay many times more than it's own weight in eggs over it's lifetime.

Right...but you still have to kill the pig for the bacon!

[Tiberius]

For those who clearly just want to 'win an argument' that isn't there I suggest you find something else to do.

I don't think anyone is here just to "win an argument". theVOID pointed out a very large flaw in your reasoning, and that demands some sort of response.

This is a discussion forum; if you aren't here to discuss different points of view, why on earth are you here?

This isn't a debate; nobody is winning and nobody is losing. You've presented a certain view, but haven't been able to back it up logically, which is why you were challenged.

[Skeptic]

I already answered that, even if you did give the benefit of the doubt to vegetables, eating animals uses more vegetables than eating the vegetables directly since the animals use lots of energy just by being alive.

Nonetheless, cows do not consume more food than they provide human beings with, because even in the case of corn, there is more nutritional value in the cow than all of the feed it was given. Good stuff really.

What? You're saying that the calories cows consume is less than the calories of the meat that comes from them? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is in fact impossible. What you have there is a perpetual motion cow.

Um, so, wait a minute, it is wrong to eat animals because it is a waste of vegetables? I'm dying here. Don't you veggie types want to save the animals regardless? If we don't eat them, more veggies will be used because they will keep living.

It was purely in response to a hypothetical posed to me about the possibility of sentience in plants. If people don't eat animals then the breeders (should) produce less of them, it's not financially viable to feed up animals that there's no market for.

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For those who clearly just want to 'win an argument' that isn't there I suggest you find something else to do.

I don't think anyone is here just to "win an argument". theVOID pointed out a very large flaw in your reasoning, and that demands some sort of response.

This is a discussion forum; if you aren't here to discuss different points of view, why on earth are you here?

This isn't a debate; nobody is winning and nobody is losing. You've presented a certain view, but haven't been able to back it up logically, which is why you were challenged.

Well I currently have thevoid on ignore as he seems to have a rather large chip on his shoulder regarding veganism. Perhaps I'll look at it later when I have more patience.

I am here for discussions but if I have to spend all my time explaining myself in this thread and rebutting questions that are posed to try and catch me out (which I believe many are) rather than getting on with other discussions then it's not exactly an enjoyable environment for me to be in.

Bear in mind that I'm just one person fielding questions from many others. It does feel like a quite hostile environment.