Prayer/Meditation DOES make the world a better place

[TheouLive]

http://www.istpp.org/crime_prevention/

Just a response to an argument that many atheists make concerning prayer, like this one

http://atheists.org/blog/2011/09/12/pray...-hypocrisy

Meditation (OFTEN confused with prayer) DOES have in impact on nations and cities. It has been well documented that group meditation can lower crime rates in America. So good for the Christians praying to God! Sure, Maybe they are a little misguided at times, and all have their own focus with prayer (which why it doesn't work on a massive level). However if Christians or anyone of any faith just concentrated on one goal, more things like the lowering of the crime rate in Washington would happen!

[Tiberius]

Correlation does not imply causation.

[Stimbo]

Well, to paraphrase something my Mum often says: "Pray in one hand, shit in the other; see which you get first."

Meditation or prayer, if you're going by crime rates then it clearly isn't quite as effective as all that: Total crimes (most recent) by country.

As you can see, the US (arguably the most religious western nation) is by far the clear front-runner, with almost twice the number of crimes of the UK (a secular yet nominally xtian nation). Can you cite the source for the "lower crime rates" claim, please? It should be easy enough if it's so well-documented.

[TheouLive]

(20th September 2011 21:21)Stimbo Wrote:  Well, to paraphrase something my Mum often says: "Pray in one hand, shit in the other; see which you get first."

Meditation or prayer, if you're going by crime rates then it clearly isn't quite as effective as all that: Total crimes (most recent) by country.

As you can see, the US (arguably the most religious western nation) is by far the clear front-runner, with almost twice the number of crimes of the UK (a secular yet nominally xtian nation). Can you cite the source for the "lower crime rates" claim, please? It should be easy enough if it's so well-documented.

lol first link in my post.

I would also like to reiterate that it takes concentrated group meditation to focus on one particular area, such as Washington.

it's not like people in our current day society are turned onto this "meditation to lower the crime rate". Group meditation in the middle east also raised the quality of life in the middle east. here is the complete wiki about this particular program, and how meditation/prayer makes the world a better place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TM-Sidhi_pr...East_study

And sure, correlation doesn't mean causation. Regardless, that is HIGHLY coincidental and such a lowering of the crime rate is not heard of. I don't know what other logical conclusions you could possibly come to, with these results.

[Stimbo]

Apologies, I missed that. I'll read the article and get back to you afterwards. For now, I'll just (re)make the observation that the nation with the highest number of religious followers - thus by implication the highest volume of prayers per capita at least some percentage of which almost certainly come from victims referencing crime in one form or another - has the highest recorded crime rate on the planet.

[Shell B]

People confuse meditation and prayer?

[TheouLive]

(20th September 2011 21:43)Stimbo Wrote:  the nation with the highest number of religious followers - thus by implication the highest volume of prayers per capita at least some percentage of which almost certainly come from victims referencing crime in one form or another - has the highest recorded crime rate on the planet.

Well it's too bad we could not have an accurate survey on what people pray about. I just merely suspect that most people who do pray usually pray about their own matters in life or do not concentrate their prayers on one particular goal as was accomplished in Washington.

*SIGH*

Religion has been quite misguided in revealing the true nature of prayer and meditation due to the culturally diversionary nature of global religion. If atheists are going to criticize anything, it should be that. Thus the cultural division of spirituality has indeed gotten many Christians to think that meditation is prayer. Is meditation not the concentration of thought at times, and at other times the concentration of calming the mind?

[Stimbo]

Okay. I read your cited article, and I think the kindest word that can be used to describe it is "interesting". Essentially, it is espousing the so-called Maharishi Effect, which is the claim that a small number of Transcendental Meditators, all TMing away together, has a beneficial effect on society as a whole. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - yes, the same beardy bloke who ruined the Beatles - claimed that it would only need one percent of the population to make it work. However, he made this statement in 1960; the years that followed are virtually synonymous with an obsession for TM, Zen Buddhism, LSD, psychedelia and the like. Unfortunately, they are also synonymous with Vietnam and concomitant protests, various other wars in Africa and the Middle East, the Cuban Missile Crisis (not to mention the whole Cold War thing itself), riots in America and Europe. 1963 was a particularly bad year for one man.

Perhaps beardy bloke was wrong and in fact it needs quite a bit more than one percent? Now this really is interesting... a study done in 1986 on the Maharishi Effect concluded that it only takes a minimum of 100 TM practitioners to produce an observable result. This study was performed by the Maharishi University of Management, founded in 1971 by beardy bloke himself and which provided the article that you cited. I'm sorry, I really wanted to give this information a fair shake, but I find it very difficult to take anything seriously that requires Yogic Flying to make it work.

[5thHorseman]

Imagine where we could be if instead of wasting time praying, these people did something constructive.

[padraic]

(20th September 2011 21:21)Tiberius Wrote:  Correlation does not imply causation.

Well ,actually,it does imply (suggest) that and sometimes it's true. However,it does not allow that inference (conclusion) in and of itself.

However, there is some truth in the assertion: IF meditators and the prayerful practice their rituals in private,they are not getting around annoying the rational. Consequently,the world is a more peaceful place.


There is some evidence that both prayer and meditation can have a positive effect on the practitioner,but only on them.

My favourite use of correlation comes from the nineteenth century: Glasow; Six months after all ministers in the Presbyterian Church were given a pay rise, it was found that the rate of prostitution in the city had risen by 7%.