And that Jesus had to kill himself because it was in the scriptures (although there isn't) doesn't make it less of a suicide because he also wrote (dictated) those scriptures.

Of course he didn't come to "save" the unbelievers and that's why he's a failure. And blaming it on free will of victims doesn't mitigate Jesus failure that he wasn't more convincing.

And Jesus didn't come to save unbelievers. John 3:16.

FM: Christians would answer with Free Will. 'Jesus died for you. If you don't accept it, it's not on Jesus.'

Eleven: But he was SUPPOSED to die, per the narrative. Saving himself wasn't an option.

So more fitting name for Jesus would be like Curser or Damniator or Failure.

And why is Jesus called a Savior because even if you "follow the narrative" he cursed and condemned much more people than he "saved" considering that majority of people don't believe in him and will be doomed? It's like calling Titanic a success in saving drowning people.

Technically, FM is accurate with the suicide angle. Jesus was not willing to save himself, even though it was within his power to do so. Instead, he gave up on life. Theists erroneously label it a sacrifice, when realistically suicide is the more accurate term.

FM: Leaving aside the illogic and inconsistencies of the story, Jesus was SUPPOSED to die to save mankind. Again, self-sacrifice is nothing like being a suicidal maniac. If it were, Jesus would have simply thrown himself under the first runaway oxcart that happened along.

FM: He didn't save anyone, of course. But if you're going to dispute the narrative, you have to dispute what the narrative actually says. And it neither says nor implies that Jesus was a suicide.

You care about Jesus that much? He ends up being fine, don't you worry too much about him.

Or it's like seeing an ant about to fall from the table and you jump on the floor and kill yourself just so an ant could land on something soft and have a nice meal of your flesh.

But even then, Jesus is supposed to be a supreme being, so it's like if you're sitting in a boat with lifejackets and see someone drowning near you and instead of lending your hand to pick him up from water, you purposely drown yourself to get him out.

Saving people? Who did he save? Was someone drowning?

Putting theology aside, perhaps a bit more sensitivity towards any people here who've lost loved ones to suicide? Een if it's just the shoutbox. Just a suggestion.

Of course they are. If you lose your life trying to save other people, it's hardly a suicide. I was making the point that Jesus doesn't qualify as a suicidal maniac.

They are no way comparable. The former is about reckless behavior leading to people dying, the second is about a selfless act resulting in saving a life.

This is the sort of non-sequiter strawman that gives people a reason not to take atheism seriously.

If a man dies while saving a drowning child, is he a 'suicidal maniac'? Self-sacrifice isn't the same as suicide.

*hugs and kisses for everyone* would indeed be advice from suicidal maniac like Jesus, considering it would be very suicidal if everyone started hugging and kissing each other in these COVID-19 times.