(September 2, 2015 at 4:43 pm)Aroura Wrote:

(September 2, 2015 at 4:37 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Ugh... that's awful. This is the type of stuff that keeps me up at night. I can't stand hearing about animals being treated like that.

Sorry about that.  I horrifies me too!  That's why I volunteer at a no-kill shelter.

And those animals are nothing to do with food.  We keep pets, in modern times, purely for our own enjoyment.  And we murder millions of them every year....just so we can have some of the nicer ones for company.

No need to apologize. You make a great point.

(September 2, 2015 at 4:34 pm)Aroura Wrote:

(September 2, 2015 at 3:59 pm)KUSA Wrote: Man licks goat pussy - no consent from goat = baaaaaaad

Man kills and eats goat - no consent from goat = good

This is my issue with every singe bodily harm and consent argument.

And the person who said the MAJORITY of bodily invasions we perform on animals are helpful to them, like taking them to the vet, just no. Incorrect The vast majority of animals that humans own are mistreated quite badly, and then killed without any thought for their desires or comforts.

Like Pets.  Yes, we love our pets.  I own 2 cats and they are like family to me. I would never knowingly harm them.  However...perhaps I am unknowingly harming them.

According to the ASPCA

Quote:Approximately 7.6 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year. Of those, approximately 3.9 million are dogs and 3.4 million are cats. Each year, approximately 2.7 million animals are euthanized (1.2 million dogs and 1.4 million cats)

And the vast majority of those animals are healthy, adoptable animals.  They aren't even EATEN.  We just murder them because we don't want them, and then turn them into mulch, or pet food for the survivors, or at best they are cremated.  I had a pet put down 2 years ago (he was dying of liver failure, but still), and it is NOT PEACEFUL.  They are terrified.  He pulled the needle out once it was in.  The nurse had to stick him 7 times!!!! before she got it in again...and then he convulsed for a good 30 seconds, trying to breath.  IT was AWEFUL.  And humans do this to healthy pets!!!!  

This does not even touch on the issue of how we treat our food animals.  Talk about ick.

But if there is sex involved, then suddenly it is immoral?  It's hypocritial. 

If you contribute to the puppy mill industry, or don't fix your pets, you are doing them much worse harm than some horny guy who likes furries, IMO.  If you are for animal rights, that is great, but then you need to be consistent.

Personally, this has become a bigger and bigger issue as I get older.  My family has stopped eating mammals, but we still eat fish and foul (only wild caught or raised on free range farms), but I'm starting to feel even that is wrong.  I already volunteer at a local no-kill shelter, and help them pick up strays to get them fixed. 

But honestly, since animals cannot give consent for anything we do to them, AND anything we do to them could be causing some kind of suffering, doing anything at all to an animal could be immoral.  The very act of having a pet....have you never looked into your pets eyes and wondered if it isn't suffering some kind of Stockholm syndrome?  WE tell our pets what they can eat, where they can sleep or be in the house, and we never give them autonomy to CHOOSE freedom.  Not that I'm withPita and think we should let all the pets go, I'm just saying, it's hypocritical to say bestiality is immoral if you even OWN a pet.

~waits to be ponced on by almost everyone~

I agree, it's vile the number of animals killed in shelters every year, which is why I support the No Kill Coalition.

And before anyone screams "join PETA" at me, they kill more animals, percentage wise, that are brought into them than almost any other organisation.

(September 2, 2015 at 4:34 pm)Aroura Wrote:

(September 2, 2015 at 3:59 pm)KUSA Wrote: Man licks goat pussy - no consent from goat = baaaaaaad

Man kills and eats goat - no consent from goat = good

This is my issue with every singe bodily harm and consent argument.

And the person who said the MAJORITY of bodily invasions we perform on animals are helpful to them, like taking them to the vet, just no. Incorrect The vast majority of animals that humans own are mistreated quite badly, and then killed without any thought for their desires or comforts.

Like Pets.  Yes, we love our pets.  I own 2 cats and they are like family to me. I would never knowingly harm them.  However...perhaps I am unknowingly harming them.

According to the ASPCA

Quote:Approximately 7.6 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year. Of those, approximately 3.9 million are dogs and 3.4 million are cats. Each year, approximately 2.7 million animals are euthanized (1.2 million dogs and 1.4 million cats)

And the vast majority of those animals are healthy, adoptable animals.  They aren't even EATEN.  We just murder them because we don't want them, and then turn them into mulch, or pet food for the survivors, or at best they are cremated.  I had a pet put down 2 years ago (he was dying of liver failure, but still), and it is NOT PEACEFUL.  They are terrified.  He pulled the needle out once it was in.  The nurse had to stick him 7 times!!!! before she got it in again...and then he convulsed for a good 30 seconds, trying to breath.  IT was AWEFUL.  And humans do this to healthy pets!!!!  

This does not even touch on the issue of how we treat our food animals.  Talk about ick.

But if there is sex involved, then suddenly it is immoral?  It's hypocritial. 

If you contribute to the puppy mill industry, or don't fix your pets, you are doing them much worse harm than some horny guy who likes furries, IMO.  If you are for animal rights, that is great, but then you need to be consistent.

Personally, this has become a bigger and bigger issue as I get older.  My family has stopped eating mammals, but we still eat fish and fowl (only wild caught or raised on free range farms), but I'm starting to feel even that is wrong.  I already volunteer at a local no-kill shelter, and help them pick up strays to get them fixed. 

But honestly, since animals cannot give consent for anything we do to them, AND anything we do to them could be causing some kind of suffering, doing anything at all to an animal could be immoral.  The very act of having a pet....have you never looked into your pets eyes and wondered if it isn't suffering some kind of Stockholm syndrome?  WE tell our pets what they can eat, where they can sleep or be in the house, and we never give them autonomy to CHOOSE freedom.  Not that I'm withPita and think we should let all the pets go, I'm just saying, it's hypocritical to say bestiality is immoral if you even OWN a pet.

~waits to be ponced on by almost everyone~

^^This is why my wife and I own a rescue.  We pull from kill shelters all the time and have a network of foster homes to get these guys adopted out to loving homes.  We've had boxes of kittens dropped off on our porch, picked up dogs that have been left tied to handicap signs at walmart parking lots, and every other weekend we go to downtown Detroit to pass out essentials bags to homeless people and bring dog food to feed the feral strays.

(September 2, 2015 at 4:53 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:

(September 2, 2015 at 4:34 pm)Aroura Wrote: This is my issue with every singe bodily harm and consent argument.

And the person who said the MAJORITY of bodily invasions we perform on animals are helpful to them, like taking them to the vet, just no. Incorrect The vast majority of animals that humans own are mistreated quite badly, and then killed without any thought for their desires or comforts.

Like Pets.  Yes, we love our pets.  I own 2 cats and they are like family to me. I would never knowingly harm them.  However...perhaps I am unknowingly harming them.

According to the ASPCA

And the vast majority of those animals are healthy, adoptable animals.  They aren't even EATEN.  We just murder them because we don't want them, and then turn them into mulch, or pet food for the survivors, or at best they are cremated.  I had a pet put down 2 years ago (he was dying of liver failure, but still), and it is NOT PEACEFUL.  They are terrified.  He pulled the needle out once it was in.  The nurse had to stick him 7 times!!!! before she got it in again...and then he convulsed for a good 30 seconds, trying to breath.  IT was AWEFUL.  And humans do this to healthy pets!!!!  

This does not even touch on the issue of how we treat our food animals.  Talk about ick.

But if there is sex involved, then suddenly it is immoral?  It's hypocritial. 

If you contribute to the puppy mill industry, or don't fix your pets, you are doing them much worse harm than some horny guy who likes furries, IMO.  If you are for animal rights, that is great, but then you need to be consistent.

Personally, this has become a bigger and bigger issue as I get older.  My family has stopped eating mammals, but we still eat fish and fowl (only wild caught or raised on free range farms), but I'm starting to feel even that is wrong.  I already volunteer at a local no-kill shelter, and help them pick up strays to get them fixed. 

But honestly, since animals cannot give consent for anything we do to them, AND anything we do to them could be causing some kind of suffering, doing anything at all to an animal could be immoral.  The very act of having a pet....have you never looked into your pets eyes and wondered if it isn't suffering some kind of Stockholm syndrome?  WE tell our pets what they can eat, where they can sleep or be in the house, and we never give them autonomy to CHOOSE freedom.  Not that I'm withPita and think we should let all the pets go, I'm just saying, it's hypocritical to say bestiality is immoral if you even OWN a pet.

~waits to be ponced on by almost everyone~

^^This is why my wife and I own a rescue.  We pull from kill shelters all the time and have a network of foster homes to get these guys adopted out to loving homes.  We've had boxes of kittens dropped off on our porch, picked up dogs that have been left tied to handicap signs at walmart parking lots, and every other weekend we go to downtown Detroit to pass out essentials bags to homeless people and bring dog food to feed the feral strays.

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for doing this!

(September 2, 2015 at 4:53 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:

(September 2, 2015 at 4:34 pm)Aroura Wrote: This is my issue with every singe bodily harm and consent argument.

And the person who said the MAJORITY of bodily invasions we perform on animals are helpful to them, like taking them to the vet, just no. Incorrect The vast majority of animals that humans own are mistreated quite badly, and then killed without any thought for their desires or comforts.

Like Pets.  Yes, we love our pets.  I own 2 cats and they are like family to me. I would never knowingly harm them.  However...perhaps I am unknowingly harming them.

According to the ASPCA

And the vast majority of those animals are healthy, adoptable animals.  They aren't even EATEN.  We just murder them because we don't want them, and then turn them into mulch, or pet food for the survivors, or at best they are cremated.  I had a pet put down 2 years ago (he was dying of liver failure, but still), and it is NOT PEACEFUL.  They are terrified.  He pulled the needle out once it was in.  The nurse had to stick him 7 times!!!! before she got it in again...and then he convulsed for a good 30 seconds, trying to breath.  IT was AWEFUL.  And humans do this to healthy pets!!!!  

This does not even touch on the issue of how we treat our food animals.  Talk about ick.

But if there is sex involved, then suddenly it is immoral?  It's hypocritial. 

If you contribute to the puppy mill industry, or don't fix your pets, you are doing them much worse harm than some horny guy who likes furries, IMO.  If you are for animal rights, that is great, but then you need to be consistent.

Personally, this has become a bigger and bigger issue as I get older.  My family has stopped eating mammals, but we still eat fish and fowl (only wild caught or raised on free range farms), but I'm starting to feel even that is wrong.  I already volunteer at a local no-kill shelter, and help them pick up strays to get them fixed. 

But honestly, since animals cannot give consent for anything we do to them, AND anything we do to them could be causing some kind of suffering, doing anything at all to an animal could be immoral.  The very act of having a pet....have you never looked into your pets eyes and wondered if it isn't suffering some kind of Stockholm syndrome?  WE tell our pets what they can eat, where they can sleep or be in the house, and we never give them autonomy to CHOOSE freedom.  Not that I'm withPita and think we should let all the pets go, I'm just saying, it's hypocritical to say bestiality is immoral if you even OWN a pet.

~waits to be ponced on by almost everyone~

^^This is why my wife and I own a rescue.  We pull from kill shelters all the time and have a network of foster homes to get these guys adopted out to loving homes.  We've had boxes of kittens dropped off on our porch, picked up dogs that have been left tied to handicap signs at walmart parking lots, and every other weekend we go to downtown Detroit to pass out essentials bags to homeless people and bring dog food to feed the feral strays.

You, sir, are a hero to me.

(September 2, 2015 at 4:34 pm)Aroura Wrote: This is my issue with every singe bodily harm and consent argument.

And the person who said the MAJORITY of bodily invasions we perform on animals are helpful to them, like taking them to the vet, just no. Incorrect The vast majority of animals that humans own are mistreated quite badly, and then killed without any thought for their desires or comforts.

I don't think you actually understand the argument.

It's not really about whether or not animals are actually mistreated, or caused harm. I saw you refer to 'food animals'. I'm sure the vast majority of people on this forum agree that some of the ways in which animals are treated are absolutely abhorrent. I think most everyone agrees with that.

What is different is one is a sort of necessary evil. Many people, myself included eat meat. Do we like the fact that animals all over the world are slaughtered? Personally, no, I don't. But I see eating meat as something that humans will inevitably do and in some respects have a right to do. The animal food industry supports millions of people across the globe and it's flagrantly naive to ask that everyone become vegetarian. But that's another thread topic altogether.

Does it make me a hypocrite though that I'm fine eating meat, but think it's bad to let a dog eat peanut butter off my dick? Ummm, how the fuck do we reach that conclusion?

I eat meat, ergo I think it's fine to do bad things to/with animals? Nope. I'm sure most rational people want their meat to come from animals that were treated humanely, and with some modicum of care.

Nobody has actually ever made the argument that the majority of animals are treated well. Quite the contrary, the majority of people I know are absolutely horrified by the way animals are treated across the world.

But I don't see where the hypocrisy is? People do get outraged over animal injustices. Believe it or not, meat eaters are capable of caring for animals. But we're sitting here like raping an animal and killing it for food are two entirely similar things, with similar purposes.

If it was okay for people to kill animals then we wouldn't have tons of regulations for how they can do it. Guess what though, we do. There's all kinds of standards and rules out there that are intended to protect animals, and regardless of whether or not they are upheld, they're there. Which means there is not actually a double standard, as far as the law goes.

So this notion that there's a level of hypocrisy is not a very clever one. It outright assumes that people are ok with doing all this other evil shit to animals, but we draw the line at fucking them. That's demonstrably not the case and not too far from a straw man of the entire argument against bestiality.

(September 2, 2015 at 5:03 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(September 2, 2015 at 4:53 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: ^^This is why my wife and I own a rescue.  We pull from kill shelters all the time and have a network of foster homes to get these guys adopted out to loving homes.  We've had boxes of kittens dropped off on our porch, picked up dogs that have been left tied to handicap signs at walmart parking lots, and every other weekend we go to downtown Detroit to pass out essentials bags to homeless people and bring dog food to feed the feral strays.

You, sir, are a hero to me.

It's rewarding and frustrating at the same time.  We won't ever stop doing it because everyone that we can save, we will.  

We helped Detroit Dog Rescue bring greater regulations for animal control in the city of Detroit and we recently had a big win:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/lo.../30766399/

(September 2, 2015 at 4:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(September 2, 2015 at 3:59 pm)Thena323 Wrote: Nice backpedaling, honey. I gotta give it to you, you're good at this. 
Enjoy your day.

If you were familiar with me and my posts, you'd see that it's very common for me to ask questions and then acknowledge people's good points when they answer me.
Enjoy yours too.

I'm quite familiar with your posts. I just chose not to respond to any of them until today.

(September 2, 2015 at 5:17 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:

(September 2, 2015 at 5:03 pm)Beccs Wrote: You, sir, are a hero to me.

It's rewarding and frustrating at the same time.  We won't ever stop doing it because everyone that we can save, we will.  

We helped Detroit Dog Rescue bring greater regulations for animal control in the city of Detroit and we recently had a big win:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/lo.../30766399/

I do know what you mean.  Obviously I don't run a shelter but two of my beasties (cats) are rescues - both abandoned by their previous owners, and I'm feeding another little grey and white girl who comes in periodically and scoffs down more food in one sitting than my fat guy eats in a day.

(September 2, 2015 at 5:17 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:

(September 2, 2015 at 5:03 pm)Beccs Wrote: You, sir, are a hero to me.

It's rewarding and frustrating at the same time.  We won't ever stop doing it because everyone that we can save, we will.  

We helped Detroit Dog Rescue bring greater regulations for animal control in the city of Detroit and we recently had a big win:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/lo.../30766399/

Ah, all the more reason for you to be my favorite person on here, King. 

Wish I could do stuff like this myself, but there's no way I'd be strong enough to handle it. I can't even go inside a shelter because it'll hurt my heart so much and keeps me up at night. I have 6 cats, 4 of which were strays I adopted off the streets because I couldn't bring myself to drop them off at a shelter. I leave food out for the feral cats, too.