All you have to do to prove the shroud of Turin is a fake is read the Bible. John 20:6,7 shows what Jesus was buried in.

Quote:Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself.

It is quite clear from this that he wasn't buried in a shroud.

(November 10, 2010 at 3:41 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote:

(November 10, 2010 at 3:19 pm)Nitsuj Wrote: I don't find it convincing. I just find it the MOST convincing about all the religous arguments. I never really thought that it could be a forgery. Dumb oversight on my part.

I find it amongst the least convincing. Even if it weren't a forgery, why would it be the image of anything other than a ordinary dead man?

There was no shortage of crucified men around.

Spatacus's army was crucified the length of the road from the battlefield to rome.

Quote:Spatacus's army was crucified the length of the road from the battlefield to rome.

And no one took the bodies down for "proper buriall" when they were dead. They were left to rot there as a message.

The message was "Don't Fuck With Us."

It must have made travel along the most important arterial military road in Italy distinctly unhealthy and unpleasant.

For a month or so.

After that......... time would have taken care of the problem. When the body fell off they tossed it on a garbage heap.


The gospel stories of how a crucified criminal was taken down for "proper burial" are a fine example of xtian special pleading.

(November 12, 2010 at 1:49 am)Minimalist Wrote: The gospel stories of how a crucified criminal was taken down for "proper burial" are a fine example of xtian special pleading.

I recently wrote an article about "Our Lady of Fatima" and it was interesting how much fluff every religious site put into their commentary on the events. They add so much "religious people are good" and "everyone else really wants to bow to god" shit that they make it more unbelievable. The "Miracle of the Sun," is said to have occurred when the children were done seeing their "visions" of the virgin Mary. The sun danced in the sky and convinced all present that Mary had really shown these kids visions. As if that wasn't unbelievable enough, they said that tens of thousands of people witnessed it and that the atheists who were present fell to their knees and began praying to god for forgiveness. Dipshits. First off, the visions supposedly happened over a matter of months in a small village in Portugal in 1913. So, they're basically saying that word spread like wildfire and tens of thousands of people thought this was so much more important than WWI that they just had to go. Also, who among the atheists here can imagine falling to your knees and praying?

(November 12, 2010 at 1:49 am)Minimalist Wrote: For a month or so.

After that......... time would have taken care of the problem. When the body fell off they tossed it on a garbage heap.


The gospel stories of how a crucified criminal was taken down for "proper burial" are a fine example of xtian special pleading.

Everything that is special to any religion is a case of special pleading. Faith IS nothing more than a petulant insistence on special pleading. As to this particular example, it's hardly worth pointing out. When the entire thing is thoroughly rotten, it's hardly worth pointing that a particular part of it also happen to be rotten.

(November 12, 2010 at 2:13 am)Shell B Wrote:

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(November 12, 2010 at 1:49 am)Minimalist Wrote: The gospel stories of how a crucified criminal was taken down for "proper burial" are a fine example of xtian special pleading.

I recently wrote an article about "Our Lady of Fatima" and it was interesting how much fluff every religious site put into their commentary on the events. They add so much "religious people are good" and "everyone else really wants to bow to god" shit that they make it more unbelievable. The "Miracle of the Sun," is said to have occurred when the children were done seeing their "visions" of the virgin Mary. The sun danced in the sky and convinced all present that Mary had really shown these kids visions. As if that wasn't unbelievable enough, they said that tens of thousands of people witnessed it and that the atheists who were present fell to their knees and began praying to god for forgiveness. Dipshits. First off, the visions supposedly happened over a matter of months in a small village in Portugal in 1913. So, they're basically saying that word spread like wildfire and tens of thousands of people thought this was so much more important than WWI that they just had to go. Also, who among the atheists here can imagine falling to your knees and praying?

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I know that story very well, I've been to Fatima (its the village's name), nothing special there, except a monumental pilgrimage site, a nexus for catholic income. There is the traditions for people here to go walking (sometimes barefoot) threre on the supposed day of the sightings. Supposedly 'to pay a promise'. Of course some never do, they are ran over by cars on their trips, I guess it shows how much their lord care for his groveling worshippers. Legends, created in fear and superstition during the war. The 1st Republic tried to dispell that nonsense at the time (completetely secular, giving great emphasis to education), but it fell to a coup and the dictatorship that came after knew how to take full advantage of it.

But the area is quite beautifull, has the greatest caves on this country, some medieval castles and a beautifull landscape.

Copying from an earlier post on this subject, I draw your attention to this line:

In the Museum Cluny in Paris, the coats of arms of this knight and his widow can be seen on a pilgrim medallion, [b]which also shows an image of the Shroud of Turin.


After some digging I found a photo of this medallion.






As you can see, it shows a full front and back vision of the shroud and certainly dates from a time prior to Secondo Pia's "discovery" of the image as a result of taking a photograph and "discerning" an image on the negative.

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Quote:I recently wrote an article about "Our Lady of Fatima"

Got a link, Shel?

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Quote:When the entire thing is thoroughly rotten, it's hardly worth pointing that a particular part of it also happen to be rotten.

True, Chuck, except one has to keep rapping believers over the head with the obvious. In this instance we do know what the Romans used crucifixion for and how they used it. Rebels and slaves suffered crucifixion. Common criminals were executed in the arena.

(November 12, 2010 at 11:48 am)Minimalist Wrote: Got a link, Shel?

I will as soon as it gets past the powers that pay.