(September 15, 2015 at 10:22 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 15, 2015 at 12:51 pm)Esquilax Wrote: That's probably because the "why?" is completely unnecessary and irrelevant. Is there a problem, if the universe doesn't exist for some explicit, preordained purpose?

For me there's a problem with the existence of a universe with no purpose.  I can't settle for "it's just there", especially when everything living creatures do is for some purpose.  Shuffle must be interested in a reason for things too, because he's asking for reasons why God created diseases and such.

Awwwwwwww, the poor baby is sad that his life might have no meaning, therefore he constitutes his own made-up reality as a little security blanket. And those MEAN ATHEISTS, trying to rip off his security blanket with logic. LEAVE HIM ALONE!

I only asked because I am really curious to how the creatards justify the most terrible things in the world. There are no reasons for things. Get over it.

(September 15, 2015 at 10:22 pm)Lek Wrote: For me there's a problem with the existence of a universe with no purpose.  I can't settle for "it's just there", especially when everything living creatures do is for some purpose.  Shuffle must be interested in a reason for things too, because he's asking for reasons why God created diseases and such.

But wouldn't god be "just there"? Why replace one mystery with an even bigger one? In this case god would himself have no purpose. I say we stop the infinite regress before invoking the supernatural.

Organisms do things for a reason because they are trying to survive; the universe itself has no will and thus no agency. Thus, the universe never does anything for a reason other than "the laws of physics dictate that this will happen".

(September 15, 2015 at 9:41 pm)Shuffle Wrote:

(September 15, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Godschild Wrote: I could ask the same about evolution, right. I would need to do some study on that one and at this time well... I do not have the time.

You could ask the same, and anyone with half a brain would know the answer. It is all about mutation and natural selection. If there is a sudden environmental pressure for a certain herbivorous species to start eating meat, then whichever individual or group of that species is going to survive better than the others.

For example, there is a disease that wipes out all the plants in an area, and there is a species of herbovores there. Whichever animal has the sharpest teeth, the longest digestive track, the strongest stomach acid, and the best enzymes for digesting meat will survive and produce more than the animals that don't. His/her babies will have the same carnivorous traits, and their babies will, and so on and so on.

The herbivores would die off before anything like that could take place, no food no life, besides that's all speculation, you have no evidence.

GC

(September 15, 2015 at 9:28 pm)Shuffle Wrote:

(September 15, 2015 at 2:23 pm)Godschild Wrote: He didn't as far as I know, when the fall occurred all life suffered the fall, including the micro organisms. Unfortunately for us they turned to the worse side.

Hm, interesting. 

WHAT?! GOD DID SOMETHING WRONG?! Better blame it on a fruit!

God has never done anything wrong. I do not find it strange that you have the low mentality to blame wrongs on something like fruit.

GC

(September 15, 2015 at 11:58 pm)Shuffle Wrote:

(September 15, 2015 at 10:27 pm)Lek Wrote: I believe he created them for some purpose.  I just don't know exactly what that purpose is.  I know that they are part of life on earth, and that they won't exist on the new earth.  I deal with the bad things knowing that God will get me through okay.

Would you say that you have a personal relationship with your god? If so, then how do you not understand the most fundemental questions of his actions?

And why did you ask me why things exist anyway?!

I have a personal relationship with God in that I can go directly to him with my concerns, but I don't have conversations with him. I don't know his mind. I know that Adam and Eve lived an idyllic existence before they disobeyed God and now they and all mankind does not. How literal the story of the Garden of Eden is, I don't know. But as far as the "bad" things that happen in the world go, I believe that experiencing them, with God taking us through teaches us dependence on him and forms us into the people we need to be to inherit the kingdom of God.

The reason why I asked you why anything exists is that you were looking for a reason for "bad" things, but don't seem to care why the cosmos exists.

(September 16, 2015 at 1:12 am)Darkstar Wrote:

(September 15, 2015 at 10:22 pm)Lek Wrote: For me there's a problem with the existence of a universe with no purpose.  I can't settle for "it's just there", especially when everything living creatures do is for some purpose.  Shuffle must be interested in a reason for things too, because he's asking for reasons why God created diseases and such.

But wouldn't god be "just there"? Why replace one mystery with an even bigger one? In this case god would himself have no purpose. I say we stop the infinite regress before invoking the supernatural.

Organisms do things for a reason because they are trying to survive; the universe itself has no will and thus no agency. Thus, the universe never does anything for a reason other than "the laws of physics dictate that this will happen".

So the universe, or rather whatever makes up the universe, had no beginning. There was just always something there with no beginning. and no end, since matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

(September 16, 2015 at 11:59 am)Lek Wrote:

(September 16, 2015 at 1:12 am)Darkstar Wrote: But wouldn't god be "just there"? Why replace one mystery with an even bigger one? In this case god would himself have no purpose. I say we stop the infinite regress before invoking the supernatural.

Organisms do things for a reason because they are trying to survive; the universe itself has no will and thus no agency. Thus, the universe never does anything for a reason other than "the laws of physics dictate that this will happen".

So the universe, or rather whatever makes up the universe, had no beginning.  There was just always something there with no beginning. and no end, since matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

Technically matter can be destroyed if it comes into contact with antimatter, and 'created' along with an equal portion of antimatter via quantum fluctuations. Perhaps there is a set point for the ratio of matter vs. antimatter balanced by their mutual destructions and quantum fluctuations. Perhaps this is how the universe came to be. Of course, this is merely a hypothesis for which I have no proof. There is still so much about quantum physics that we still do not understand. However, just because we can't currently say how it is that the universe is here does not mean that it therefore must be magic.

(September 16, 2015 at 5:09 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

(September 16, 2015 at 11:59 am)Lek Wrote: So the universe, or rather whatever makes up the universe, had no beginning.  There was just always something there with no beginning. and no end, since matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

Technically matter can be destroyed if it comes into contact with antimatter, and 'created' along with an equal portion of antimatter via quantum fluctuations. Perhaps there is a set point for the ratio of matter vs. antimatter balanced by their mutual destructions and quantum fluctuations. Perhaps this is how the universe came to be. Of course, this is merely a hypothesis for which I have no proof. There is still so much about quantum physics that we still do not understand. However, just because we can't currently say how it is that the universe is here does not mean that it therefore must be magic.

According to your scientific possibility about how the universe might have come to be, you still rely on something existing that was involved in the creation of matter. Is it possible that something has existed in infinity with no beginning - something that has always been there?

(September 16, 2015 at 5:24 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 16, 2015 at 5:09 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Technically matter can be destroyed if it comes into contact with antimatter, and 'created' along with an equal portion of antimatter via quantum fluctuations. Perhaps there is a set point for the ratio of matter vs. antimatter balanced by their mutual destructions and quantum fluctuations. Perhaps this is how the universe came to be. Of course, this is merely a hypothesis for which I have no proof. There is still so much about quantum physics that we still do not understand. However, just because we can't currently say how it is that the universe is here does not mean that it therefore must be magic.

According to your scientific possibility about how the universe might have come to be, you still rely on something existing that was involved in the creation of matter.  Is it possible that something has existed in infinity with no beginning - something that has always been there?

There may be something. Nothing that would conform to any meaningful description of a god though.

(September 16, 2015 at 6:16 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(September 16, 2015 at 5:24 pm)Lek Wrote: According to your scientific possibility about how the universe might have come to be, you still rely on something existing that was involved in the creation of matter.  Is it possible that something has existed in infinity with no beginning - something that has always been there?

There may be something. Nothing that would conform to any meaningful description of a god though.

From what I understand of the atheistic views, either natural "stuff" (for lack of a better word) had to pop out of nothing or else it was never created and has always existed, in some manner, in infinity. You don't know what the answer is, so how can you rule out a supernatural creator - especially since so many reputable and trusted people have testified to experiences with the supernatural?