OnlyNatural Wrote:

dqualk Wrote:The Bible says a lot of thing, most of which is analagous, not literal.

If that's the case, and the Bible is mostly analogy and metaphor, then it can be interpreted in nearly limitless ways. Interpreting a metaphor in the way that is most pleasing to you, then calling your interpretation the truth, is laughable. And you can't pick and choose which parts are literal, and which parts are metaphorical. On what basis could you make such claims anyway? Let's just agree that it's all fiction, with no bearing on the truth, and leave it at that.

No because I am a Catholic. And so the Church and her magesterium has interpretted the Bible to such a degree that we know what is to be taken literal, what can be taken as analogy and what is just analogy. For example, the resurrection is to be taken literal de fide (this means from faith literally, but dynamically it means it is to be taken as true forever and can never change) the Church has bound this on the faithful in such a way that that teaching can never change, however a 7 day creation can be taken as analogy or it can be taken literally, and so can Jonah and the Whale etc. Something that must be taken as analogy is God the father getting angry or walking in the garden. These are just temporal ways to explain how the Jews felt about God. God was not really angry, as God is Divinely Simple, as defined by St. Thomas Aquinas. Jesus in his human nature can really be angry etc. But his Divine Nature is Divinely simple and therefore the best way to describe his personality in human terms is charity, we only know this from Divine Revelation, but God is composed of no parts and therefore he is unintelligable within the temporal realm apart from Divine Revelation.

Anyway, the Church does not make it a point to list everything one must believe and one must not believe but when contention arises she is there to tell the faithful whether something must be believed de fide, or whether we can have our own personal opinion, or if we can have an opinion within a range of opinions or if we just outright cannot believe something. Also, to be Christian one does not need to believe all the right things. Its the spirit of the thing, as long as you seek the Truth in charity you are fulfilling the laws and commandments of what it takes to be "saved" for all of the law is contained in this that you love God and the second is like unto it, that you love your neighbor as yourself.

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On the basis that Jesus handed to Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven and earth so that whatever he should bind on earth would be bound in heaven and whatever he should loose on earth should be loosed in heaven. The See of Peter is our direct and only connection back to Christ. The See of Peter and those Bishops in union with him make use of Holy Tradition which is contained within the written (Holy Bible) and oral form. The Bishops then respond to various problems that might arise, and on issues of faith and morals they do so infallibly.

dqualk Wrote:

OnlyNatural Wrote:

dqualk Wrote:The Bible says a lot of thing, most of which is analagous, not literal.

If that's the case, and the Bible is mostly analogy and metaphor, then it can be interpreted in nearly limitless ways. Interpreting a metaphor in the way that is most pleasing to you, then calling your interpretation the truth, is laughable. And you can't pick and choose which parts are literal, and which parts are metaphorical. On what basis could you make such claims anyway? Let's just agree that it's all fiction, with no bearing on the truth, and leave it at that.

And so the Church and her magesterium has interpretted the Bible to such a degree that we know what is to be taken literal, what can be taken as analogy and what is just analogy. For example, the resurrection is to be taken literal de fide (this means from faith literally, but dynamically it means it is to be taken as true forever and can never change) the Church has bound this on the faithful in such a way that that teaching can never change, however a 7 day creation can be taken as analogy or it can be taken literally, and so can Jonah and the Whale etc.

Even if the Catholic church has come to some sort of consensus on what is literally true or not, each sect of Christianity has a different interpretation of what is 'true forever and can never change,' to say nothing of different religions. The point is that with so many opinions and interpretations, all made by fallible human beings who don't have all the answers, how can we ever say 'this is the Truth'? Maybe the resurrection is just a metaphor. Maybe Jesus himself is a metaphor. Maybe God is a metaphor too.

Personally, I prefer to go out into the world and discover the evidence for myself, instead of relying, unquestionably, on the opinions of biased religious leaders who cling to tradition, faith, and revelation.

Well I believe that the See of Peter is the Vicar of Christ on Earth. The Church under the See of Peter has consistently been here since the time of Jesus. In all recorded history there has been a Bishop in Rome recognized as the head of the Bishops. Even to this day the Eastern Orthodox Church accepts that the Pope at least has a "primacy of honor" because it is undeniable within the Traidtion of the Church.

I think it is much harder to argue for protestant Christianity, but I have many friends who feel they have sufficient reason to believe in there style which usually relies on the Bible alone. And further the term Christian is really defined by beliveing in the Trinity and the life death and resurrection Christ, and his freeing his Creation from death. If you do not beleive these basic things I believe you are, according to the textbook, not a Christian. Although you might be similar to a Christian, I would argue that you lack an essential property of what a Christian is.

Further I do not rely only on the authority of others. There is a very real longing within me that tells me there is meaning and intrinsic value which to me implies that there must be a God. After this I observe the religions of the world and I have come to the conclusion that Christianity makes the most metaphsical sense.

dqualk Wrote:That is kind of hateful... hating men of God. Well I do not hate you, any case! Also, the Bishops of the Catholic Church, at least for the past 300+ years have lived without any kind of luxury, for the most part, many of which take vows to povery and celibacy, like our dear Pope, who does not have an personal items, besides a few keep sakes, like a watch his sister gave him. Further, Religious (monks and nuns) make true vows to poverty and never own anything, and hardly eat anything. Many never eat meat or drink alcohol. And they work, and all of their work goes to others. Many men of God our heroes, even if you think they are delusional, and if you can't see that I would say you are blinded by hate.

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You totally and comprehensively failed to understand the point of my post didn't you?

Well, never mind. It's your happy little delusion and all the pink fluffy bunnies there know you.

(January 16, 2011 at 8:22 pm)dqualk Wrote: There is a very real longing within me that tells me there is meaning and intrinsic value which to me implies that there must be a God. After this I observe the religions of the world and I have come to the conclusion that Christianity makes the most metaphsical sense.

Just because you feel something strongly, in your heart, does not make it true. Meaning and intrinsic value can just as easily come out of a convenient, comforting framework that ignores the facts. This is why you hear people mentioning the word 'delusion,' because it means a strong conviction to something for which there is no evidence. 'Faith' means the same thing.

I don't know how you can look at all the religions of the world, including religions of the past, and still be convinced that your religion is the right one. You were born into it, most likely, and raised with it, and that is why it makes intuitive sense to you.

Back to the point of this thread, the very idea of an afterlife is impossible. Everything that makes you 'you' is contained within your brain. Patients with severe brain damage or neurodegenerative diseases show profound personality, perceptual, cognitive, and behavioural changes, loss of memories, inability to experience emotion, etc.. Patients who are brain dead will never be aware of anything ever again. When your brain dies, everything responsible for consciousness, awareness, perception, thinking, feeling, decision-making, etc. dies with it, and therefore 'you' also cease to exist.

The finality of death is a fact of life, it's better to accept it and come to terms with it, rather than delude yourself with false promises.

(January 15, 2011 at 9:00 pm)dqualk Wrote: And finally, you atheists, what do you think about this approach to heaven and hell? Do you hate it, is it nice but obviously false because God isn't real, or something else?

I can't rationally hate some place or state of being that I don't believe exists. As far I as know and believe biological dead is the finale end of my consciousness, my self-awareness will cease to be as all brain activity stops. I've no reason to think there is an afterlife since no proponent of the concept has ever backed up their claims with hard evidence.

Quote:Well I believe that the See of Peter is the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

You apparently believe everything the men in black dresses tell you. Pity.

(January 15, 2011 at 9:24 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I think you are delusional.

Highly likely Min. A lot Catholics are,starting with the senile incumbent in charge of the Vatican.

However,based on the evidence so far,I think it's probably fairer to say our resident chronic Catholic is suffering from cognitive dissonance,rather than some form of psychosis.(unlike the pope) .That's a job requirement for Catholics especially,and believers of all kinds as a general principle.

Sane response: You believe? How wonderful for you! Like me to believe? No probs,simply show me the evidence to support your claims. If you're unable to do that,please stop wasting my time and fuck off.( and I mean that in the kindest possible way)

(January 17, 2011 at 1:54 pm)OnlyNatural Wrote:

(January 16, 2011 at 8:22 pm)dqualk Wrote: There is a very real longing within me that tells me there is meaning and intrinsic value which to me implies that there must be a God. After this I observe the religions of the world and I have come to the conclusion that Christianity makes the most metaphsical sense.

Just because you feel something strongly, in your heart, does not make it true. Meaning and intrinsic value can just as easily come out of a convenient, comforting framework that ignores the facts. This is why you hear people mentioning the word 'delusion,' because it means a strong conviction to something for which there is no evidence. 'Faith' means the same thing.

I don't know how you can look at all the religions of the world, including religions of the past, and still be convinced that your religion is the right one. You were born into it, most likely, and raised with it, and that is why it makes intuitive sense to you.

Back to the point of this thread, the very idea of an afterlife is impossible. Everything that makes you 'you' is contained within your brain. Patients with severe brain damage or neurodegenerative diseases show profound personality, perceptual, cognitive, and behavioural changes, loss of memories, inability to experience emotion, etc.. Patients who are brain dead will never be aware of anything ever again. When your brain dies, everything responsible for consciousness, awareness, perception, thinking, feeling, decision-making, etc. dies with it, and therefore 'you' also cease to exist.

The finality of death is a fact of life, it's better to accept it and come to terms with it, rather than delude yourself with false promises.

I was not born into it. Many people convert to Christianity from various religions. My ancestors were pagans who converted to Christianity, Africa is converting as a massive rate, and Asia is converting slowly. Just because you feel there is no God in your heart doesn't make it true. Listen God is different than Santa Clause or whatever else many of you tell yourselves. One can arrive at the conclusion that there is a God using the natural light of reason. Granted that one must accept certain facts as a-priori like you have an intrinsic value and that there is a right and a wrong. Now this is fairly similar to accepting that you exist, which is funny becuase in a way atheists even deny that. Atheism is a delusion, it says ultimately I do not exist, I am really just random reactions brought about by colliding atoms. We know we exist, and we know we are of value, real intrinsic value, not just relative value. You see when one postulates that the universe makes sense and that there is meaning he arrives at the conclusion that there is an Unmoved Mover to the material realm, and an Unmoved Mover of sorts within the metaphysical realm, in the metaphysical realm this God gives us meaning, a soul, reason and a purpose. Santa Clause bears the marks of an entirely different sort, so does the spagehtti monster and what ever silly devices people invent to make themselves fill good about belittleing a perfectly legitimate worldview. This is only an arguement for Theism. Once you arrive at this conclusion there is a whole different set of distinctions and observations to be made that sound stupid when one has not accepted Theism as true, before one arrives at the belief in Christ. It would be like trying to explain evolution to a child when they don't have a decent understanding of science. They will conclude that it is rediculous that we came from monkeys, but this is clearly not what the theory of evolution teaches but it can sound that rediculous if you do not go through the process of learning about it. So its useless for me to try and talk about Christianity until one has acquired a healthy respect for Theism in general.

Listen I will never believe that what makes me me is contained solely within material. I have a firm belief in my soul, and you can not prove to me that there is no soul, so do not say there is not a soul as if you know. I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY YOU SHOULD BELIEVE IN THE SOUL BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT DISPROVE ITS EXISTANCE. However, I am saying that you should not go about proclaiming the non-existance of the soul, and expect me to believe it.

Ultimately Christianity and Theism teach that death and nihil is not the final say, it is not our ultimate destiny; rather, life is our final destiny. If you choose to BELIEVE that death is certainly the final say, that is your business. Do not delude youself with lies that Theism is pure foolishness and only stupid people beleive it. The fact is many of the greatest minds of all time were Theist, to this very day. Yes there is a new phenomonon that is taking root in universities that is atheism, but I doubt it will last to much longer. Theism is a tried and true way to view the world. It relies upon the axiom that there is an intrinsic value, which forces the rational mind to conclude that there is a metaphysical realm that is not subject to the same temporality that we experience. If you would like I could list some of the great minds who were theist, in any century since the beginning of recorded history. I do not mind people saying that Theism does not make as much sense to me. Or I choose not to believe in it because it seems less probably to me, but to act like its absolutely foolish just exposes that you are ignorant and arrogant. Once again, I do not say that all atheist are crazy or delusional, I have great respect for some, many are my dear friends, and I have some respect for Bertrand Russel and David Hume, two great minds. But I also have a great respect for Theists like Leibniz, Galileo, Newton, Tesla and Einstein.

Atheism is the real delusion which claims that we ultimately don't exist, and that there is no intrinsic value, that there is no right or wrong. I know better than that. I know I exist. I think therefore I am. I know that I have value, its a-priori to my entire being. I know that there is a right and a wrong. I do not delude myself into believeing that I am ultimately the result of random atom collisions.

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(January 17, 2011 at 5:57 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Well I believe that the See of Peter is the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

You apparently believe everything the men in black dresses tell you. Pity.

Wow minimalist your arrogant ignorance always finds a way to contribute to the discussion at hand lol.

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(January 17, 2011 at 6:46 pm)padraic Wrote:

(January 15, 2011 at 9:24 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I think you are delusional.

Highly likely Min. A lot Catholics are,starting with the senile incumbent in charge of the Vatican.

However,based on the evidence so far,I think it's probably fairer to say our resident chronic Catholic is suffering from cognitive dissonance,rather than some form of psychosis.(unlike the pope) .That's a job requirement for Catholics especially,and believers of all kinds as a general principle.

Sane response: You believe? How wonderful for you! Like me to believe? No probs,simply show me the evidence to support your claims. If you're unable to do that,please stop wasting my time and fuck off.( and I mean that in the kindest possible way)

You don't have to read my posts. Perhaps others like to read it.

Here is some evidence for you. Do you exist? Do you have intrinsic value? Is there an objective right and wrong? If the answer to these are yes, then there must be a God. If you are so delusional and removed from yourself that you deny these basic axioms then enjoy your fake mechanical atomic colliding life. I'll contine you to REASON with my RATIONAL soul.

(January 15, 2011 at 9:00 pm)dqualk Wrote: So I thought I would post my vision of the next life.

Next life? What? You have evidence of a life after you die? Wow. I'd like to see that please.

Quote:....do so with respect please!

You're asking me to respect a belief that the supernatural exists? Like ghosts, warlocks, witches, zombies, Harry Potter and such? Sorry, can't do that. I refuse to respect those beliefs and quite frankly I'm not going to respect the people that hold them.

Quote: Please forgive me.

No.

Quote:Anyway, I believe when one dies he does not perish, in the sense of disappear or something akin.

Got any evidence that led you to believe in such a thing? Or were you just relating your fantasy which you wish were true?

Quote:Everyone passes into God's love. In fact, we are all already in the presence of God's love even now. When one passes his soul is judged by God, as to the content of its hate.

What? Who? Wait. Who is this "God" you speak of? Does he live in that fantasy supernatural world you were describing? Or is he just a part of your wishful fantasy? Are you claiming this God is part of reality or are you reconizing this character is just part of your wishful fantasy?

Quote:If one is void of hate, one passes into heaven, which is in fact only a more pure presence of God's love, in which one is able to more fully participate in God's love by returning His love with love.

When one passes and has some measure of hate within, but not to such a degree as to consume the soul, this one passes into purgatory, which is similar to .......snip

Awww... That was nice... kinda. Anyway that's your wishful fantasy. Your God isn't real.

Mine is all supernaturally too. We have ghostly forms that live on and we git to haunt people for laughs and we can take solid form to enjoy enchilada night! Oh and shapeshift too! We can change forms so I can be the ghost of Gene Shallot or people that were girly-men in life can be Brittney Spears or something. And No Gods Allowed!

Obviously you believe this God character to be part of reality. Why?