(January 13, 2016 at 6:35 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: ::  sigh::  mystic, if you can't get past this absurd notion that atheists are simply "denying God," then you will never be able to have a sincere discussion with any atheist here.

I don't believe Atheists purposely do this. It's just that they don't realize the double think they are in.

So you think that you know what I think better than I do? This is -one- of the reasons I can't take you seriously.

(January 13, 2016 at 6:38 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: So you think that you know what I think better than I do?  This is -one- of the reasons I can't take you seriously.  

I can say the same thing about Atheists denying Theists have knowledge of God. But let's not get petty. We disagree on that God ought to be known to humanity and whether he is the manifest truth.

Let's not make it personal.

Yes, but I don't go to religious forums with the intent to tell them how self deluded they are, which is kind of what you are doing here.

I'm not looking for any certifiably ultimate value. I'm pretty comfortable going with what suits me regardless of whether my choice represents the most popular, super duper best one ever. I don't approach anything else in my life like that, why would I look for it with god-strings attached?

As an atheist I am not questioning how sincere your belief in God is, I am questioning your definition of the term knowledge.

(January 13, 2016 at 12:48 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Mystic, part of me actually sympathizes with you, because I feel like you are wrestling nightmarishly with something you will never be able to pin down.  It seems like it is eating you up inside.  Don't let these thoughts keep you up at night!  Just live life as it appears in front of you.  

First, the moon and people are not analogous.  It's like when people compare metabolism to the engine of a car.  Sounds like a neat comparison, but humans are in fact, NOT cars.  It's an oversimplified and inaccurate analogy.  

Second, I feel like you don't understand use of the word "value" when it comes to objective versus subjective.  You can measure the size of the moon, and you can measure how tall I am. Those are objective values.  My family subjectively values me because they love me and would be upset if I died.   I subjectively value the moon because I think it's pretty, and helps me to see when I am driving at night.  Understand?

You family subjectively loves you more then others, because they are closer to you, but they also know there is a objective value to who you are, or would not subjectively love you. They cannot subjectively chose to love you without believing there is an objective value to who you are even if they don't know it exactly. Yet something must know it exactly because it's about quality and not mere weight that simply exists.

A glass, you add more water, it has more water, however with the value of the self, there needs to be perception to it, otherwise you cannot add value to it. The objective judge/seeing one is himself the ultimate judge of what a good deed is and how much it ought to increase your value.

(January 13, 2016 at 6:44 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: I'm not looking for any certifiably ultimate value.  I'm pretty comfortable going with what suits me regardless of whether my choice represents the most popular, super duper best one ever.  I don't approach anything else in my life like that, why would I look for it with god-strings attached?

Because you acknowledge the strings whether you intellectually or outwardly realize it or not, you inside act according to this belief, as I showed in the OP.

(January 13, 2016 at 6:34 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 13, 2016 at 6:29 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: How does God measure the objective value of his own standard for objective value?

This is a good question, God himself is knowledge, he witnesses himself as sheer perfection, absolute life such that there cannot exist a god other then Him. His existence is absolute. Had this absolute value not existed, then no value would exist, because all of it must have a basis, and the only basis is absolute knowledge/perception for it to be true.

Had God been limited or one of many, then this would be impossible.

When we witness God's Oneness, it is borrowed from his own witnessing of himself and his witnessing of all things.

How does God know he himself is knowledge? What if there's something he doesn't know? He could never say there isn't something he doesn't know because he wouldn't know it if there was and doesn't know it if there is.

How does God judge himself absolute perfection? By what standard does God measure perfection? His own? Wouldn't that then be a subjective opinion?

If my objective measurement of value is different than that of God's, that means there is a difference of opinion, that God's is not the only measurement of value, therefore his standard cannot possibly be the objective standard.

(January 13, 2016 at 6:53 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: How does God know he himself is knowledge?

By being absolute knowledge and seeing himself perfectly.

Quote:How does God judge himself absolute perfection? By what standard does God measure perfection? His own? Wouldn't that then be a subjective opinion?

No it's actually the only possible source of objective perception. We ourselves know we err. We mix falsehood with truth. We exaggerate. We underestimate. We see what we want to see with our sheer desires. God's standard of perfection is himself. He is sheer perfection with the utmost standard of perfection.

Quote:If my objective measurement of value is different than that of God's, that means there is a difference of opinion, that God's is not the only measurement of value, therefore his standard cannot possibly be the objective standard.

No one said there isn't subjective value, it's just that our subjective value is always done with belief there is objective value and hence an objective standard, even though we aren't the standard.