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(January 16, 2016 at 10:23 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Yes I did say that. Maybe we're not defining justify in the same way. How are you defining justify?
We're not talking about justification; I said that there was no reason for there to even be sin, if God is all powerful.
How do you know this statement is true?
(January 17, 2016 at 10:58 am)RobbyPants Wrote: You then went and explained the purpose of sin as showing us God's mercy and justice... after saying that we need God's mercy and justice to deal with sin. It's still all circular.
I did. What I wrote is different than saying: sin makes known God's mercy and justice, and God's mercy and justice makes known sin, which is the circle you're alluding to. I haven't claimed that God's mercy and justice makes known sin.
(January 17, 2016 at 10:58 am)RobbyPants Wrote: You haven't even explained why we "need" sin in the first place. Keep in context that you're talking about an infinitely powerful god with an infinite number of ways he could have chosen to deal with.
How do you know God had an infinite number of ways He could have chosen to deal with?
(January 17, 2016 at 10:58 am)RobbyPants Wrote:
(January 16, 2016 at 10:23 am)orangebox21 Wrote: We're going to have to back up so I can clearly understand you. What is the logical conclusion of Christianity? Are you claiming that the logical conclusion of Christianity is that a woman is justified in aborting a child [because of her knowledge that this child will go to heaven]?
I'm saying under your explanation that mercy explains the "bad parts" of theology, that Christians could utilize that exact same reasoning.
What "bad parts" of theology are you talking about and how does mercy explain them?
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists... and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible... would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
(January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am)orangebox21 Wrote: I did. What I wrote is different than saying: sin makes known God's mercy and justice, and God's mercy and justice makes known sin, which is the circle you're alluding to. I haven't claimed that God's mercy and justice makes known sin.
No, you're right. Looking back on it, I think I misread one of those two quotes. They were both saying the same thing, but in a different order.
(January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am)orangebox21 Wrote: How do you know God had an infinite number of ways He could have chosen to deal with?
Are you saying that God isn't all powerful?
(January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am)orangebox21 Wrote: What "bad parts" of theology are you talking about and how does mercy explain them?
Basically the existence of heaven and hell at all, plus suffering and evil in this world. The notion of infinite consequences for finite (and only partially informed) decisions.
Strictly speaking, by allowing a person to reach the age of accountability (if the Christian believes in such a thing*), they're allowing the risk that the person could end up in hell.
* The concept isn't actually Biblical, but everyone who isn't a Calvinist seems to at least imply this is the case. And even if Almighty God makes a decision for each and every child, if he were to send even one to hell, you'd be worshiping a capricious jerk.
(January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am)orangebox21 Wrote: I did. What I wrote is different than saying: sin makes known God's mercy and justice, and God's mercy and justice makes known sin, which is the circle you're alluding to. I haven't claimed that God's mercy and justice makes known sin.
No, you're right. Looking back on it, I think I misread one of those two quotes. They were both saying the same thing, but in a different order.
No problem, I saw the same thing you did and was having a difficult time sorting through it as well.
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:
(January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am)orangebox21 Wrote: How do you know God had an infinite number of ways He could have chosen to deal with?
Are you saying that God isn't all powerful?
There's a yes and a no to that. God is limited to act in a manner consistent within His nature. So God can't sin, nor does He tempt anyone, nor could He do something that is logically incoherent. Apart from that God is all powerful.
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:
(January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am)orangebox21 Wrote: What "bad parts" of theology are you talking about and how does mercy explain them?
Basically the existence of heaven and hell at all, plus suffering and evil in this world. The notion of infinite consequences for finite (and only partially informed) decisions.
I don't want to get too off track here but I'll mention two things here. First, the punishment is established by the law giver, not the law breaker. Secondly, how do you know that sinning against God ends at death? Some people have openly admitted that even if the Christian God proved Himself to them, they still wouldn't worship Him. Why assume this isn't the attitude of the unrepentant sinner even after death?
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Strictly speaking, by allowing a person to reach the age of accountability (if the Christian believes in such a thing*), they're allowing the risk that the person could end up in hell.
That's true.
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: * The concept isn't actually Biblical, but everyone who isn't a Calvinist seems to at least imply this is the case. And even if Almighty God makes a decision for each and every child, if he were to send even one to hell, you'd be worshiping a capricious jerk.
Just out of curiosity, would your opinion change if the child was going to grow up to be a warmonger unlike the world has ever seen? What about a serial killer who would kill 20 people? 15? 10? 5000? What about someone who would grow up to reinstitute the worship of Molech (throwing infants into a fire)?
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists... and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible... would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Are you saying that God isn't all powerful?
There's a yes and a no to that. God is limited to act in a manner consistent within His nature. So God can't sin, nor does He tempt anyone, nor could He do something that is logically incoherent. Apart from that God is all powerful.
Apart from that being pretty ad hoc, there's actually no reason to believe that's the case. If I tell you it is not in my nature to lie and that I cannot lie... is the only logical conclusion you can draw from that that I must be telling the truth?
(January 19, 2016 at 4:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Basically the existence of heaven and hell at all, plus suffering and evil in this world. The notion of infinite consequences for finite (and only partially informed) decisions.
I don't want to get too off track here but I'll mention two things here. First, the punishment is established by the law giver, not the law breaker. Secondly, how do you know that sinning against God ends at death? Some people have openly admitted that even if the Christian God proved Himself to them, they still wouldn't worship Him. Why assume this isn't the attitude of the unrepentant sinner even after death?
Yes... and there's still no reason to assume that sin is necessary, at all. If sin isn't necessary, neither is the punishment. If God can do anything but sin or tempt people, there's no reason to believe that his "plan" requires divine law/sin.
(January 19, 2016 at 4:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: * The concept isn't actually Biblical, but everyone who isn't a Calvinist seems to at least imply this is the case. And even if Almighty God makes a decision for each and every child, if he were to send even one to hell, you'd be worshiping a capricious jerk.
Just out of curiosity, would your opinion change if the child was going to grow up to be a warmonger unlike the world has ever seen? What about a serial killer who would kill 20 people? 15? 10? 5000? What about someone who would grow up to reinstitute the worship of Molech (throwing infants into a fire)?
If the child hasn't done it yet, then why should God punish it with hell? I thought the whole point of the free will defense is that we need to be able to make choices, and that's what justifies hell. If the kid hasn't made the decision yet, on what basis is God punishing it? I mean, yes, God is supposed to be able to see the future, but now we're getting into hard determinism.
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: No, you're right. Looking back on it, I think I misread one of those two quotes. They were both saying the same thing, but in a different order.
No problem, I saw the same thing you did and was having a difficult time sorting through it as well.
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Are you saying that God isn't all powerful?
Quote:There's a yes and a no to that. God is limited to act in a manner consistent within His nature. So God can't sin, nor does He tempt anyone, nor could He do something that is logically incoherent. Apart from that God is all powerful.
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Basically the existence of heaven and hell at all, plus suffering and evil in this world. The notion of infinite consequences for finite (and only partially informed) decisions.
I don't want to get too off track here but I'll mention two things here. First, the punishment is established by the law giver, not the law breaker. Secondly, how do you know that sinning against God ends at death? Some people have openly admitted that even if the Christian God proved Himself to them, they still wouldn't worship Him. Why assume this isn't the attitude of the unrepentant sinner even after death?
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)Robb yPants Wrote: Strictly speaking, by allowing a person to reach the age of accountability (if the Christian believes in such a thing*), they're allowing the risk that the person could end up in hell.
That's true.
(January 19, 2016 at 2:27 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: * The concept isn't actually Biblical, but everyone who isn't a Calvinist seems to at least imply this is the case. And even if Almighty God makes a decision for each and every child, if he were to send even one to hell, you'd be worshiping a capricious jerk.
Just out of curiosity, would your opinion change if the child was going to grow up to be a warmonger unlike the world has ever seen? What about a serial killer who would kill 20 people? 15? 10? 5000? What about someone who would grow up to reinstitute the worship of Molech (throwing infants into a fire)?
Which man gave God his nature and declared what he can and can't do? It must have been the con man that created the God character in his image.
