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January 16, 2016 at 9:34 am (This post was last modified: January 16, 2016 at 9:37 am by RobbyPants.)
(January 15, 2016 at 4:05 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(January 15, 2016 at 1:50 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: That's circular. You've justified sin with God's mercy and justice, and now you're justifying his mercy and justice with sin.
No, I'm showing that God has a purpose for sin. God has used the existence of sin to show His mercy and His justice and there is no clearer picture of that than at the cross where His wrath was poured out onto the Son and the righteousness of the Son was poured out onto believers. This is the power of the death of Christ and the means of salvation to all who believe.
It is. You flat out said that it's not without purpose. That without it, we wouldn't know God's justice and mercy.
(January 15, 2016 at 1:21 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: I'm not sure what you mean 'need' but certainly it has been shown that sin is not without purpose. If sin did not exist in the world then we would not know God's justice nor His mercy.
...or are you saying there's some other unstated purpose? If so, what is it?
(January 15, 2016 at 4:05 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Sure, I get that you don't believe, but this is the logic you used to argue that it is merciful to abort a child within the context of the Christian worldview. Are you withdrawing that argument?
No. I said unequivocally that it is the logical conclusion of Christianity. I'm saying it's the uncomfortable argument they should be making, but shy away from. They "solve" this by saying they don't have the authority to kill or something something God's plan.
...of course, if God's plan can be circumvented by free will, it's not much of a plan.
(January 15, 2016 at 4:05 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: No, I'm showing that God has a purpose for sin. God has used the existence of sin to show His mercy and His justice and there is no clearer picture of that than at the cross where His wrath was poured out onto the Son and the righteousness of the Son was poured out onto believers. This is the power of the death of Christ and the means of salvation to all who believe.
It is. You flat out said that it's not without purpose. That without it, we wouldn't know God's justice and mercy.
Yes I did say that. Maybe we're not defining justify in the same way. How are you defining justify?
(January 16, 2016 at 9:34 am)RobbyPants Wrote:
(January 15, 2016 at 4:05 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Sure, I get that you don't believe, but this is the logic you used to argue that it is merciful to abort a child within the context of the Christian worldview. Are you withdrawing that argument?
No. I said unequivocally that it is the logical conclusion of Christianity. I'm saying it's the uncomfortable argument they should be making, but shy away from. They "solve" this by saying they don't have the authority to kill or something something God's plan.
We're going to have to back up so I can clearly understand you. What is the logical conclusion of Christianity? Are you claiming that the logical conclusion of Christianity is that a woman is justified in aborting a child [because of her knowledge that this child will go to heaven]?
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists... and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible... would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
(January 16, 2016 at 10:23 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Yes I did say that. Maybe we're not defining justify in the same way. How are you defining justify?
We're not talking about justification; I said that there was no reason for there to even be sin, if God is all powerful. You then went and explained the purpose of sin as showing us God's mercy and justice... after saying that we need God's mercy and justice to deal with sin.
It's still all circular. You haven't even explained why we "need" sin in the first place. Keep in context that you're talking about an infinitely powerful god with an infinite number of ways he could have chosen to deal with.
I have a feeling this is going to go the way most of these discussions go, and end up with us suffering because God doesn't want "robot friends".
(January 16, 2016 at 10:23 am)orangebox21 Wrote: We're going to have to back up so I can clearly understand you. What is the logical conclusion of Christianity? Are you claiming that the logical conclusion of Christianity is that a woman is justified in aborting a child [because of her knowledge that this child will go to heaven]?
I'm saying under your explanation that mercy explains the "bad parts" of theology, that Christians could utilize that exact same reasoning.
(December 7, 2015 at 1:38 pm)Lek Wrote: Why would God help us do something which he has told us not to do? We rely on God's help to do his will, not to go against it. When we do evil, we are refusing God's help.
Then God did nothing to end slavery (he approves of it in the bible) ending the treatment of women as property (he's a big fan of that in both testaments) and still does nothing to stop children from being raped in his own churches.
What a guy. Are you sure you're not worshiping Satan?
The whole tone of Church teaching in regard to woman is, to the last degree, contemptuous and degrading. - Elizabeth Cady Stanton
(December 7, 2015 at 1:38 pm)Lek Wrote: Why would God help us do something which he has told us not to do? We rely on God's help to do his will, not to go against it. When we do evil, we are refusing God's help.
Then God did nothing to end slavery (he approves of it in the bible) ending the treatment of women as property (he's a big fan of that in both testaments) and still does nothing to stop children from being raped in his own churches.
What a guy. Are you sure you're not worshiping Satan?
God ordered all kinds of harsh practices in the old testament. People were objects of his wrath. He wasn't always very pleasant in his dealings with humankind. The thing is that those who believed in him and followed him are at peace with him right now. After the establishment of the new covenant, when Jesus had taken on God's wrath for us, we were no longer under his wrath. Since he commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves, he couldn't have condoned the type of slavery which we had in this country. I would assume that the slavery referred to in Paul's epistles was voluntary slavery, in which a person would voluntarily give himself over to slavery. In exchange, his physical needs would be taken care of by the owner. It was a very common practice and worked quite well for many. The bible always tells slave owners to be kind toward their slaves and treat them well. It may have been cultural at the time that women were legally property, for non-christians as well, but neither Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever referred to women as property. In fact there numerous women addressed in the bible who were instrumental in the workings of the early church such as Phoebe, Euodia and Syntyche. As far a children getting raped in his churches - God's church is the "Body of Christ", which consists of the total of the followers of Christ. I couldn't say whether or not a certain congregation or denomination is part of his church. Anyway, he doesn't stop children from being raped in homes, schools or wherever. He also doesn't stop murders, robberies, beatings, wars and so on. Of course, he doesn't make people commit those sins; he commands us not to do them and he gives the task to his followers to spread the gospel of love. If everyone loved his neighbors as himself then he wouldn't commit these type of acts toward them.
We already have a biblical slavery appreciation thread. One's more than enough, surely?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
January 18, 2016 at 12:20 am (This post was last modified: January 18, 2016 at 12:22 am by Wyrd of Gawd.)
(January 17, 2016 at 10:53 pm)Lek Wrote:
(January 17, 2016 at 9:53 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Then God did nothing to end slavery (he approves of it in the bible) ending the treatment of women as property (he's a big fan of that in both testaments) and still does nothing to stop children from being raped in his own churches.
What a guy. Are you sure you're not worshiping Satan?
God ordered all kinds of harsh practices in the old testament. People were objects of his wrath. He wasn't always very pleasant in his dealings with humankind. The thing is that those who believed in him and followed him are at peace with him right now.
Quote:After the establishment of the new covenant, when Jesus had taken on God's wrath for us, we were no longer under his wrath. Since he commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves,
he couldn't have condoned the type of slavery which we had in this country. I would assume that the slavery referred to in Paul's epistles was voluntary slavery, in which a person would voluntarily give himself over to slavery. In exchange, his physical needs would be taken care of by the owner. It was a very common practice and worked quite well for many. The bible always tells slave owners to be kind toward their slaves and treat them well. It may have been cultural at the time that women were legally property, for non-christians as well, but neither Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever referred to women as property. In fact there numerous women addressed in the bible who were instrumental in the workings of the early church such as Phoebe, Euodia and Syntyche. As far a children getting raped in his churches - God's church is the "Body of Christ", which consists of the total of the followers of Christ. I couldn't say whether or not a certain congregation or denomination is part of his church. Anyway, he doesn't stop children from being raped in homes, schools or wherever. He also doesn't stop murders, robberies, beatings, wars and so on. Of course, he doesn't make people commit those sins; he commands us not to do them and he gives the task to his followers to spread the gospel of love. If everyone loved his neighbors as himself then he wouldn't commit these type of acts toward them.
(January 17, 2016 at 9:53 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Then God did nothing to end slavery (he approves of it in the bible) ending the treatment of women as property (he's a big fan of that in both testaments) and still does nothing to stop children from being raped in his own churches.
What a guy. Are you sure you're not worshiping Satan?
God ordered all kinds of harsh practices in the old testament. People were objects of his wrath. He wasn't always very pleasant in his dealings with humankind. The thing is that those who believed in him and followed him are at peace with him right now. After the establishment of the new covenant, when Jesus had taken on God's wrath for us, we were no longer under his wrath. Since he commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves, he couldn't have condoned the type of slavery which we had in this country. I would assume that the slavery referred to in Paul's epistles was voluntary slavery, in which a person would voluntarily give himself over to slavery. In exchange, his physical needs would be taken care of by the owner. It was a very common practice and worked quite well for many. The bible always tells slave owners to be kind toward their slaves and treat them well. It may have been cultural at the time that women were legally property, for non-christians as well, but neither Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever referred to women as property. In fact there numerous women addressed in the bible who were instrumental in the workings of the early church such as Phoebe, Euodia and Syntyche. As far a children getting raped in his churches - God's church is the "Body of Christ", which consists of the total of the followers of Christ. I couldn't say whether or not a certain congregation or denomination is part of his church. Anyway, he doesn't stop children from being raped in homes, schools or wherever. He also doesn't stop murders, robberies, beatings, wars and so on. Of course, he doesn't make people commit those sins; he commands us not to do them and he gives the task to his followers to spread the gospel of love. If everyone loved his neighbors as himself then he wouldn't commit these type of acts toward them.
There is no big difference between god in the OT and NT just saying
January 18, 2016 at 12:56 am (This post was last modified: January 18, 2016 at 1:00 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 18, 2016 at 12:54 am)dyresand Wrote:
(January 17, 2016 at 11:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote: We already have a biblical slavery appreciation thread. One's more than enough, surely?
Rhythm could there be a rule against slavery appreciation threads?
Afraid not, that slavery was super awesome is an article of faith. We don't touch that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
