(January 24, 2016 at 10:23 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I've been thinking about whether there's a "black culture."  Yes, yes there is.


I'd say black culture consists of those cultural institutions which were MADE BY black subcultures.  Blues, jazz and rap all originate with black subcultures, and were appropriated (blatantly and sometimes not very well) by people like Elvis or early white rappers.  They are cultural institutions the existence for which black people are responsible, and not other people.

That doesn't mean that all black people need to care about any of those institutions.  It doesn't mean that rappers even represent the majority of black people.  But they are definitely black culture, IMO.

It's strange that nobody gets mad about other cultural attributions.  No Italians get pissed off when you say opera is Italian culture.  Spanish people don't get pissed off when you say bullfighting is part of Spanish culture.  But some black people (or more often, I'm guessing, white hipsters who want an excuse to get in a huff on behalf of black people) are offended by attributing culture to black people.  That's dumb.

I think it's the other way around. Some people are offended when white people say black people's culture is theirs.

(January 24, 2016 at 2:41 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I'm a white guitarist who plays blues and jazz. I really don't give a shit whether someone thinks I'm taking someone else's culture or not, because it's the musical expression that speaks to me, not the image.

I'm an American who loves eating Italian food.  I don't give a shit whether someone thinks I'm stealing their culture or not, because it's the taste I'm savoring, not the ability to fake being Italian by eating their food.

Culture is only a mass-produced phenomenon if you allow it to be so in your mind. There's nothing at all wrong with picking and choosing the different elements of different cultures that you most enjoy. If that induces butthurt in the perpetually-offended, it's all the better.

Thump, I don't disagree with you, but enjoying is different from what I described above - Using another group's culture (that you probably do not understand if you were never educated about it) as if it was yours and promoting stereotypes. 

Yes, enjoy Italian food all you want, I enjoy it too - But I don't go out pretending I'm an Italian now because I tasted Italian food, and I don't pretend I can comprehensively understand the background, subculture and origins of every Italian dish as if I was raised by Italians (unless I actually was). Every person is brought up with a cultural background. It is impossible to understand everyone else's by 100%. I don't know a lot about American culture outside hollywood and every mass corporate marketed product (globalization), so I'm not going to think all American culture is that and that all Americans are fast-food addicts, fat and ignorant.

(January 23, 2016 at 3:09 pm)BrokenQuill92 Wrote: So I was hanging out with my cousin the other day and he shows up dressed as the worst black stereotype available. Like a total Lil' Wayne knock off. And this idiot opens his mouth and says "I'm all about that thug life." I of course look at this fool like he's lost his damn mind. We were raised in pockets of accountants and bankers, in gated communities on the shores of Lake Erie WTF does he think he knows about "thug life". But it all got me thinking, can black people appropriate black culture? For instance I love blues music but do I really have comprehension being cosseted most of my life to appreciate it in its fullness, or am I just siphoning off a cool sound?

The people who can fully appreciate the history behind the blues music are the people who experienced the history behind the blues music. 
Its not like you can't appreciate it but lets be realistic; noone from this time can really comprehend the conditions under which it was born or the motivations of its parents. Which is fine, its not a prerequisite. 
The sound can resonate in you, make you feel things deeper and stronger than you otherwise might. It could even make you relate it to certain events or conditions in your own life but thats true of everyone. It doesn't make your experience of it any less meaningful.

(January 24, 2016 at 10:23 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I've been thinking about whether there's a "black culture."  Yes, yes there is.


I'd say black culture consists of those cultural institutions which were MADE BY black subcultures.  Blues, jazz and rap all originate with black subcultures, and were appropriated (blatantly and sometimes not very well) by people like Elvis or early white rappers.  They are cultural institutions the existence for which black people are responsible, and not other people.

That doesn't mean that all black people need to care about any of those institutions.  It doesn't mean that rappers even represent the majority of black people.  But they are definitely black culture, IMO.

It's strange that nobody gets mad about other cultural attributions.  No Italians get pissed off when you say opera is Italian culture.  Spanish people don't get pissed off when you say bullfighting is part of Spanish culture.  But some black people (or more often, I'm guessing, white hipsters who want an excuse to get in a huff on behalf of black people) are offended by attributing culture to black people.  That's dumb.

Speaking of which. Santana is reforming with the original lineup!
Go Devadip!

(January 24, 2016 at 10:55 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(January 23, 2016 at 3:09 pm)BrokenQuill92 Wrote: So I was hanging out with my cousin the other day and he shows up dressed as the worst black stereotype available. Like a total Lil' Wayne knock off. And this idiot opens his mouth and says "I'm all about that thug life." I of course look at this fool like he's lost his damn mind. We were raised in pockets of accountants and bankers, in gated communities on the shores of Lake Erie WTF does he think he knows about "thug life". But it all got me thinking, can black people appropriate black culture? For instance I love blues music but do I really have comprehension being cosseted most of my life to appreciate it in its fullness, or am I just siphoning off a cool sound?

The people who can fully appreciate the history behind the blues music are the people who experienced the history behind the blues music. 
Its not like you can't appreciate it but lets be realistic; noone from this time can really comprehend the conditions under which it was born or the motivations of its parents. Which is fine, its not a prerequisite. 
The sound can resonate in you, make you feel things deeper and stronger than you otherwise might. It could even make you relate it to certain events or conditions in your own life but thats true of everyone. It doesn't make your experience of it any less meaningful.

I think the blues example is a bit complicated to explain. Let's talk hip hop instead - Whether it is gangsta rap, mainstream, underground or just hybrid old school hip hop, it's a genre appreciated by people of different races. Now, it's fine for anyone to like hip hop - But let's imagine a few iconic songs by black rappers singing about the poverty and racism against black people... If you're white (or any other race) you can enjoy the song and even cry when you listen to it, but you simply can't understand the situation exactly like the group being oppressed in the song because you are not them and will never know in the same exact terms... Many people think rappers are dumb just because they occasionally say "nigga" during songs, but they forget that culturally it can mean a lot for a black person to say the n word to another black person (also, the majority of good artists don't say nigga that much, I can only think of Lil Wayne for that case and he is certainly not very good). 

Using an easier example to explain - I'm Portuguese, and I listen to Spanish music because I can comprehend spoken-Spanish (and read a bit) and I enjoy lots of Spanish music... I can enjoy the music, but my Spanish friends have a much deeper understanding of the artists, the meaning of each song and they relate to specific things only Spanish people (sometimes from only some geographical areas and with specific backgrounds) will properly understand. What I'm saying is not to listen to it, but don't pretend you're an expert about it. I'm not an expert on Spanish music, I just enjoy some of it. I will probably never understand the meaning of some styles of music unless I lived in Spain for quite some time.

(January 23, 2016 at 3:27 pm)Vic Wrote: Cultural appropriation is a joke. You are allowed to enjoy things.

This. 

Fuck's sake. 

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Also, I'm in the "GOT is shit" group myself. The books were ok at best, the show irritates me.

(January 24, 2016 at 9:30 pm)Aegon Wrote: EDIT: For fuck's sake I wrote out an entire post and when I clicked Submit it just posted the quote I quoted.
EDIT 2: Alright, rewrote most of it.

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(January 24, 2016 at 3:40 am)Bella Morte Wrote: It doesn't fucking exist and is just an excuse for SJWs to moan like they always do. I tend to distance myself from people who actually believe in that bullshit.

What? Do you not understand what cultural appropriation is? It certainly exists. I disagree with those "SJWs" 99 percent of the time but cultural appropriation is a very real thing. At its core, the concept refers to perpetuating a cultural stereotype that is offensive to the members of that culture and is harmful to the overall image of the culture today. The idea gains steam every October, when white people decide to go out dressed in stereotypical American Indian garb or go so far as to wear blackface and wear stereotypical black gangsta clothing. Is that okay in your eyes? Another user mentioned that cultural appropriation is a joke. How is this a joke to you? Is it because you are far removed from the reality of it? How about if you're German or of German descent, and somebody came to your Halloween party in a Nazi outfit and said that they were dressed as a German. Is that not both offensive to Germans and harmful to the image that Germans (or at least the country of Germany and its culture) is trying to convey to the world today? Cultural appropriation isn't some far, far left concept that only Tumblr users get butthurt about. It's a very real thing.

Some other users in this thread are arguing that people can enjoy what they want. Yeah, they can. But at the expense of others. Fine, adopt the "they can get offended I don't give a fuck" attitude. But you also should admit that you're an asshole. If you can't see the examples I gave as the blatant racism that they are, then I have no reason to argue with you. 

Another user mentioned that they play jazz and eat Italian food. That is not cultural appropriation. If this is the general understanding of the concept, no wonder you all seem completely against it even existing. We can debate the semantics, but you must realize that it exists.

They why do they need you to stand and take offense on their behalf? Isn't that belittling in and of it self? You know I have seen a few people speak against native Halloween costumes, but I don't recall any of those speaking being native? Is it cultural appropriation if I dress up as the pope? Why is it offensive that I enjoy aspects of other cultures? How do we determine what is and is not cultural appropriation?

You're culturally appropriating lemon culture and as a lemon-kin I am deeply offended sir, I challenge you to a Tumblr-off.

EDIT: FUCK this website hates me. This is freaking out. Now the eighth page "does not exist" and it threw off my formatting...not to mention I've had to resubmit this five times for it to work.

Lemonvariable72 Wrote:

Aegon Wrote:What? Do you not understand what cultural appropriation is? It certainly exists. I disagree with those "SJWs" 99 percent of the time but cultural appropriation is a very real thing. At its core, the concept refers to perpetuating a cultural stereotype that is offensive to the members of that culture and is harmful to the overall image of the culture today. The idea gains steam every October, when white people decide to go out dressed in stereotypical American Indian garb or go so far as to wear blackface and wear stereotypical black gangsta clothing. Is that okay in your eyes? Another user mentioned that cultural appropriation is a joke. How is this a joke to you? Is it because you are far removed from the reality of it? How about if you're German or of German descent, and somebody came to your Halloween party in a Nazi outfit and said that they were dressed as a German. Is that not both offensive to Germans and harmful to the image that Germans (or at least the country of Germany and its culture) is trying to convey to the world today? Cultural appropriation isn't some far, far left concept that only Tumblr users get butthurt about. It's a very real thing.

Some other users in this thread are arguing that people can enjoy what they want. Yeah, they can. But at the expense of others. Fine, adopt the "they can get offended I don't give a fuck" attitude. But you also should admit that you're an asshole. If you can't see the examples I gave as the blatant racism that they are, then I have no reason to argue with you.

Another user mentioned that they play jazz and eat Italian food. That is not cultural appropriation. If this is the general understanding of the concept, no wonder you all seem completely against it even existing. We can debate the semantics, but you must realize that it exists.

They why do they need you to stand and take offense on their behalf? Isn't that belittling in and of it self? You know I have seen a few people speak against native Halloween costumes, but I don't recall any of those speaking being native? Is it cultural appropriation if I dress up as the pope? Why is it offensive that I enjoy aspects of other cultures? How do we determine what is and is not cultural appropriation?

Why should I have to be black to point out something racist against blacks (as an example)? As for the natives: white people will listen to other white people before they listen to minority groups. Mostly because a person wearing blackface probably knows it's offensive to a black person, but it would be other white people who would not only condone the blackface but possible approve of it and find humor in it. Having the people you look to "impress" say that it isn't okay would be the more powerful message in the end. But it's not like native peoples today are silent on the subject. Hell, this isn't even a recent thing. Well-known native scholars like Charles Eastman and Arthur C. Parker spoke on the issue and the idea that society needs to move away from the stereotypical image of American Indians as early as the beginning of the 20th century. And what do you mean "why is it offensive that I enjoy aspects of other cultures"? Are we still talking about the examples I used? Reread the post you quoted and tell me how you could construed that as a person innocently enjoying another culture. It's one thing to listen to jazz music made by black artists in the earlier part of the 20th century. It's another to dress up in a racist costume. Why do I have to explain that?

How do we determine what is and is not cultural appropriation? How is it different than any other offensive form of discrimination? Look at something you think might be cultural appropriation. Does it follow the definition of "perpetuating a cultural stereotype that is offensive to the members of that culture and is harmful to the overall image of the culture today"? Then congrats, you spotted it! It's no different than determining what is or is not racist. This is not a problem with the concept.

(January 24, 2016 at 9:30 pm)Aegon Wrote: Another user mentioned that they play jazz and eat Italian food. That is not cultural appropriation. If this is the general understanding of the concept, no wonder you all seem completely against it even existing. We can debate the semantics, but you must realize that it exists.

(January 24, 2016 at 10:39 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Thump, I don't disagree with you, but enjoying is different from what I described above - Using another group's culture (that you probably do not understand if you were never educated about it) as if it was yours and promoting stereotypes. 

Here's what the Wiki, in its introduction, says:

Quote:Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture.[1] Cultural appropriation is seen by some as controversial, as the use of elements of a minority culture by a cultural majority are seen as wrongfully oppressing the minority culture or stripping it of its group identity or intellectual property rights.[2] This view of cultural appropriation is sometimes termed "cultural misappropriation." According to proponents of the concept, cultural misappropriation differs from acculturation or assimilation in that the "appropriation" or "misappropriation" refers to the adoption of these cultural elements in a colonial manner: elements are copied from a minority culture by members of the dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context—sometimes even against the expressed, stated wishes of representatives of the originating culture.[3][2][4][5][6][7][8]

Often, the original meaning of these cultural elements is lost or distorted, which means that these uses may be viewed as disrespectful by members of the originating culture, or even as a form of desecration. Cultural elements which may have deep meaning to the original culture can be reduced to "exotic" fashion by those from the dominant culture.[3][4][9] When this is done, the imitator, "who does not experience that oppression is able to 'play,' temporarily, an 'exotic' other, without experiencing any of the daily discriminations faced by other cultures."[9]

[Emphasis added -- Thump]

Note that the opening sentence lays it out: "Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture." Following that, this passage turns to the idea of misappropriation, which is clearly not a settled matter. But the fact is that cultural appropriation is exactly what I'm doing in playing blues or jazz, or cooking Italian food. It follows, then, that misappropriation -- which certainly exists in the forms you both mention -- is only a subset of cultural appropriation.

My point was aimed at people who view all such appropriation in the above-mentioned "colonial" manner.

I stand by my interpretation of my own actions, and the actions of many if not most people in the world, as being a form of cultural appropriation, and if that hurts people's feelings -- well, maybe it means as Aegon says, I'm an asshole (which is a fact I freely admit, by the way, but not for this reason). Or maybe it means people who get hurt by a white boy playing the blues need to get a helmet.

(January 24, 2016 at 10:39 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Yes, enjoy Italian food all you want, I enjoy it too - But I don't go out pretending I'm an Italian now because I tasted Italian food, and I don't pretend I can comprehensively understand the background, subculture and origins of every Italian dish as if I was raised by Italians (unless I actually was). Every person is brought up with a cultural background. It is impossible to understand everyone else's by 100%. I don't know a lot about American culture outside hollywood and every mass corporate marketed product (globalization), so I'm not going to think all American culture is that and that all Americans are fast-food addicts, fat and ignorant.

Exactly my point. I don't get butthurt when people up North listen to western swing music, a Texan form of country music. But I do get irked when they portray all Texans as bigoted morons ... not because they're appropriating my culture, but because they're being bigots.