(February 17, 2016 at 8:58 am)Brian37 Wrote: I hate the term "hard work", that is bullshit. Productivity isn't about the amount of sweat and time, but efficiency. Business owners don't own businesses because they want to "work hard", they own them so they can have economic stability, and without that stress the hours they may spend doing it, makes it easier on them. It is much harder to work long hours if you have to struggle to pay your bills and split your time between family and two jobs.

Let me tell you about my second business here in Korea, an English school. When we opened, we had 0 students and about $15,000/month losses, mostly wages to staff who for the first couple of months pretty much had nothing to do but sit around texting their friends or watching movies on their computers. As we built our reputation and got more students, my wife spent many hours a day counseling parents, organizing children's schedules, etc. I taught ALL new students, and spent hours a day training the teachers. After 1 year, we were basically balanced, but still losing money due to aggressive advertising.

Due to MERS, we took an unexpected dip. I had to spend all day (like, 18 hours each day) teaching "classes" on Skype, but we still lost a lot of money. Our survival as a company, and as a family, was threatened. Yet after a week of MERS, I bought new computers that we didn't have a budget for so the teachers could also run Skype classes. My wife spent at least 10 hours/day explaining how to install Skype, calling students before class to iron out technical issues, etc. After MERS was over, I was doing weekend makeup classes for about 3 months until we finally got all the paid classes up to date. Through my own dedication and hard work, I saved the company, honored my commitment to the parents of my students, and saved the jobs of half a dozen workers.

And my reward for that? After 18 months in business, I'm still about $100k in debt, and my teachers make more money than I do: about $4k/month, and my wife combined take that just to meet our family's basic expenses, and we work WAY harder than all our employees put together.

Now, I know from my first business what the result, eventually, will be. A property like ours can support about 140 students, which will result in us being able to bank about $10k/month after expenses. We'll have to repeat this WHOLE PROCESS several times before we're making enough money to provide for our future.

Now, at some point, a future teacher will come in and say, "You make over $10,000 and you only work a couple hours a day. Surely you can afford to buy me a new ____, or pay for my _____, you cheap fucker." What he won't see is the spots of blood in the utility room where I smashed my fist into the mirror just trying to stay awake for the next class.


If you haven't run a small or medium business, you can't understand this: you just see the end product. You don't see the sweat and tears, the late-night fights with your wife over yet another loan. You talk about efficiency like it's a switch you just flip, ignoring the years of training and careful planning it takes to get anything running really well. You don't see how much stress an unstable market puts on someone who has nothing but the whims of his clients to separate him from wealth or bankruptcy, while his employees waltz off to the bar every Friday night with their guaranteed paycheck.

Don't fucking tell anyone with a small business that "hard work is bullshit." Don't tell them why they own their business. Don't tell them what their priorities are, what they care about, or what kind of person they are. Just shut the fuck up, put your Abba tape into the VCR, relax, and appreciate the fact that businesses like mine pay the tax that underwrites your fucking welfare checks.

And if five years from now I'm living on easy street, I'll have a nice minimum-wage job waiting for you. You can start by cleaning my fucking blood off the floor, because maybe then you'll understand what it means to run a business.

(February 17, 2016 at 9:18 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(February 17, 2016 at 8:21 am)bennyboy Wrote: People who don't understand economics shouldn't use their ignorance as the basis for moral arguments.  I'm not sure why you guys are coming in with all the shit-talk, but fucking knock it off-- at least until you know more about the particular business Chad is in and the unique challenges he faces in making his business work.

Is Chad his brother's keeper?  Does he have a moral obligation to burn money just because you or your dropout cousin or whatever doesn't have a cushy union job?  You aren't asking him to choose between big profits and moderate ones-- you're probably demanding that he commit business suicide because Americans want big pay and benefits whether an employer can afford them or not.

I know well about economics, first of all I studied it for my degree and second of all I was at the wrong end of its latest failure.

What you and shit for brains and other free market cheerleading advocating retards don't understand is that free market economies will always fail as failure is an essential component of the system. Failure is the easiest and cheapest way for those at the top to ensure they stay at the top, after every single crash it is the same people who come out ok and in control of wealth, however those below get ruined. It happens every single time.

To be fair, you will never end the private sector at a global scale. There is not one nation, friend or foe, open or closed market that does not invest in the global private sector. The only reasonable thing we can do is push to hold wealth responsible for the damage it can and does cause. 

It is why I hate the right calling "capitalism" a form of government. They have twisted the meaning of it to justify our growing plutocracy. China allows the private sector to exist, so they are "authoritarian capitalists". Saudi Arabia's Royal Family owns oil companies and invests in banks and weapons. Gadaffi was a billionaire who owned stock in GE. Iran also controls oil and their Imams also have investments in the global market. If the Un Family didn't have global investments they would have no money to pay their armies. Same with the Castro family.

I am no fan of closed markets, but I am also no fan of Ayn Rand "fuck you I got mine" either. Mixed economies that use regulation to prevent monopolies and abuse of wealth fair better long term. Centralized wealth is the same, be it one party, one religion or one class. 

The nutfucks who rail against regulation all the time also get proven wrong. Lead was removed from gas, cars were still made. Nader pointed out the bad designs of cars, and car companies learned to improve and sell safety features. But now, it is far more important to our species, which even the uber rich cannot avoid, that we stop clinging to bad technology out of greed. Our planet is at stake, and if we don't wake up, there will be no money to be made by wealthy people.

I look at economies no different than life before the first paper and coin currency was invented by humans. In any given ecosystem, if one form of life gets too dominate the entire ecosystem becomes unsustainable. It is sad considering the GLOBAL GDP that the wealth of the world cant see they'd do better to care about humans. It is sad on a planet of 7 billion humans that 62 people have the combined wealth of 3 billion humans.

The wealth of the world cant keep doing this. It will end up hurting them as well.

(February 17, 2016 at 9:30 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(February 17, 2016 at 8:58 am)Brian37 Wrote: I hate the term "hard work", that is bullshit. Productivity isn't about the amount of sweat and time, but efficiency. Business owners don't own businesses because they want to "work hard", they own them so they can have economic stability, and without that stress the hours they may spend doing it, makes it easier on them. It is much harder to work long hours if you have to struggle to pay your bills and split your time between family and two jobs.

Let me tell you about my second business here in Korea, an English school.  When we opened, we had 0 students and about $15,000/month losses, mostly wages to staff who for the first couple of months pretty much had nothing to do but sit around texting their friends or watching movies on their computers.  As we built our reputation and got more students, my wife spent many hours a day counseling parents, organizing children's schedules, etc.  I taught ALL new students, and spent hours a day training the teachers.  After 1 year, we were basically balanced, but still losing money due to aggressive advertising.  

Due to MERS, we took an unexpected dip.  I had to spend all day (like, 18 hours each day) teaching "classes" on Skype, but we still lost a lot of money.  Our survival as a company, and as a family, was threatened.  Yet after a week of MERS, I bought new computers that we didn't have a budget for so the teachers could also run Skype classes.  My wife spent at least 10 hours/day explaining how to install Skype, calling students before class to iron out technical issues, etc.  After MERS was over, I was doing weekend makeup classes for about 3 months until we finally got all the paid classes up to date.  Through my own dedication and hard work, I saved the company, honored my commitment to the parents of my students, and saved the jobs of half a dozen workers.

And my reward for that?  After 18 months in business, I'm still about $100k in debt, and my teachers make more money than I do: about $4k/month, and my wife combined take that just to meet our family's basic expenses, and we work WAY harder than all our employees put together.

Now, I know from my first business what the result, eventually, will be.  A property like ours can support about 140 students, which will result in us being able to bank about $10k/month after expenses.  We'll have to repeat this WHOLE PROCESS several times before we're making enough money to provide for our future.

Now, at some point, a future teacher will come in and say, "You make over $10,000 and you only work a couple hours a day.  Surely you can afford to buy me a new ____, or pay for my _____, you cheap fucker."  What he won't see is the spots of blood in the utility room where I smashed my fist into the mirror just trying to stay awake for the next class.


If you haven't run a small or medium business, you can't understand this: you just see the end product.  You don't see the sweat and tears, the late-night fights with your wife over yet another loan.  You talk about efficiency like it's a switch you just flip, ignoring the years of training and careful planning it takes to get anything running really well.  You don't see how much stress an unstable market puts on someone who has nothing but the whims of his clients to separate him from wealth or bankruptcy, while his employees waltz off to the bar every Friday night with their guaranteed paycheck.

Don't fucking tell anyone with a small business that "hard work is bullshit."  Don't tell them why they own their business.  Don't tell them what their priorities are, what they care about, or what kind of person they are.  Just shut the fuck up, put your Abba tape into the VCR, relax, and appreciate the fact that businesses like mine pay the tax that underwrites your fucking welfare checks.

And if five years from now I'm living on easy street, I'll have a nice minimum-wage job waiting for you.  You can start by cleaning my fucking blood off the floor, because maybe then you'll understand what it means to run a business.

Take care of yourself Han, I guess that is what you are best at.  

Once again, you show me where I said all business owners are jaded and selfish. I only said far too many at the top are. And as far as appreciating the private sector, again, I defy you to show me where I said we shouldn't? I still don't owe you my submission like a housewife with no job. But don't hadn't me this crap that being a boss constitutes the bulk of the labor. If you employ people, especially more than 2, then that means your job is bean counter and general, and you delegate. Now, if you are local and get your hands dirty along side your workers, then you most likely have more empathy for them than some asshole in an office 5 states away who never sees the workers. Still does not mean you are the most important part of society. The bulk of labor and the bulk of buying power are the workers, not you.

Your mistake is that you made this about you, and I am talking about a bigger climate and mentality collectively.

And what is your fucking fascination with blood and sweat? You sound like a theist. If everything in life is always supposed to be hard, then fire all your workers and do everything by yourself with no help. That would be much harder than having help.

(February 17, 2016 at 11:10 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 17, 2016 at 9:18 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote: I know well about economics, first of all I studied it for my degree and second of all I was at the wrong end of its latest failure.

What you and shit for brains and other free market cheerleading advocating retards don't understand is that free market economies will always fail as failure is an essential component of the system. Failure is the easiest and cheapest way for those at the top to ensure they stay at the top, after every single crash it is the same people who come out ok and in control of wealth, however those below get ruined. It happens every single time.

To be fair, you will never end the private sector at a global scale. There is not one nation, friend or foe, open or closed market that does not invest in the global private sector. The only reasonable thing we can do is push to hold wealth responsible for the damage it can and does cause. 

I've no problem either with people using their talents to make a reasonable profit and a comfortable living. But the current economic system isn't about that at all, unfortunately, it is simply about the concentration of the greatest amount of wealth and power into the smallest possible group of people. That is why less than one percent of the world's population own half its wealth.

(February 17, 2016 at 4:45 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(February 17, 2016 at 11:10 am)Brian37 Wrote: To be fair, you will never end the private sector at a global scale. There is not one nation, friend or foe, open or closed market that does not invest in the global private sector. The only reasonable thing we can do is push to hold wealth responsible for the damage it can and does cause. 

I've no problem either with people using their talents to make a reasonable profit and a comfortable living. But the current economic system isn't about that at all, unfortunately, it is simply about the concentration of the greatest amount of wealth and power into the smallest possible group of people. That is why less than one percent of the world's population own half its wealth.

Thats what they cant understand. Nobody is saying everyone has to be poor or jobless to prove themselves. And no body is demanding everyone make the same. And nobody is saying they are all evil because they own businesses. We are only saying we cant keep going like this. Of course I don't mind business ownership.  Wouldn't be typing this if someone didn't own a business to make the things I use to type this. But yea, I do have a problem when people say "Know your place because I have a title and earn more than you". No modern housewife I'd call sane would or should put up  with a dictator. Business owners are a roll, but part of a bigger picture and only one piece of the puzzle. 

If you cant see the harm our current corporate climate is, then you are out of touch. And the worst part, is that the mom an pop shops side with the corporate goons who wouldn't hesitate to squash them too if they wanted to. If you don't take care of workers, even the rich will end up getting affected by it. No matter how they try to justify it, there is no such thing as "I did it all by myself". That is literally physically impossible.

(February 17, 2016 at 4:27 pm)Brian37 Wrote: And what is your fucking fascination with blood and sweat? You sound like a theist. If everything in life is always supposed to be hard, then fire all your workers and do everything by yourself with no help. That would be much harder than having help.

In English, blood and sweat are often used and symbols of hard work, something which you've said is bullshit.

(February 17, 2016 at 4:13 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I still don't owe you my submission like a housewife with no job.

Did you even just say that? You literally just said someone's job description and said they have no job, and that they owe somebody submission. Dude, is that how you think about your mom or your sisters? And who asked you for submission, anyway?

You know what I think? I think you have a total disregard for anyone who isn't Brian37.

Let's go back a few posts, when you were telling Chad how terrible and selfish and shitty he was, because he does business overseas, which he says helps his bottom line enough to benefit his customers. Then explain again how much you respect and appreciate the contributions of small business.

I don't think anyone is saying businesses should pay higher wages regardless of their bottom line. The argument is against large companies who employ a number of people and instead of reinvesting that money back into it's workers, profits go to top executives and shareholders. If corporate America invested in it's workers, it would create an economic boost for small businesses who in turn would be able to pay better.

(February 17, 2016 at 6:06 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(February 17, 2016 at 4:27 pm)Brian37 Wrote: And what is your fucking fascination with blood and sweat? You sound like a theist. If everything in life is always supposed to be hard, then fire all your workers and do everything by yourself with no help. That would be much harder than having help.

In English, blood and sweat are often used and symbols of hard work, something which you've said is bullshit.

So, the cross is also a symbol of sacrifice. No, I said your attitude is bullshit. I didn't say owning a business is bullshit.

No, it is a meme you bought into. And you do so stupidly thinking I hate you simply because you own a business. I don't. Now again, if everything in life was meant to mean making everything harder on ourselves as a species, then we wouldn't have evolved to invent things to make our lives easier.

If you employ people, collectively speaking they do more physical labor combined than you do. There is literally no way around that. You are one piece of a business, but not the only piece.