Elohim is so sexist! It should be Elohir or Eloher/him

(April 10, 2016 at 3:43 pm)Alex K Wrote: Elohim is so sexist! It should be Elohir or Eloher/him

Eloperson sounds friendly enough. Just wave your hand and say, "Eloperson!" Maybe they'll say, "Elo." backatcha.

Holy crap, he really thinks the Papyrus Brooklyn proves the Hebrews were slaves en masse in Egypt?

All it has is a list of "Asiatic" servants (which indicates the entire region of western Asia, including Canaan), many of whom have Semitic names, and ten of whom have names that we associate with Hebrew.

None of that demonstrates a damned thing in the Genesis/Exodus stories are true. It only indicates that the Egyptians had house servants (mainly female) who came from Semitic regions, which by the way they had conquered at that period of history (so it's hardly surprising they'd bring back slaves from that region). The rest is wishful thinking on your part.

And that "it's a title" defense is horse shit. "Adonai" is a title (meaning Lord, in the same sense that we'd use it in English to reference a nobleman or anyone who rules us, including a deity). El or Eloah is a singular word meaning "god", and Elohim is its plural. Period.

I've been mentally running down a list of problems that would be created by the PB, if it literally was evidence of a massive Hebrew slave population in Egypt at the time-period the story claims.

1) The first and most obvious is that Egypt owned the entire region of Canaan at that time, and were engaged in battles in the northern part of that land to keep out the Hittites. Not only does that mean that the Egyptians would have brought slaves back from that region (making it hardly surprising that you'd find Semitic names on their list), but it means that if we accept the story, the entire Exodus was half a million Hebrews [ETA: I'm not trying to give a definitive number, here... only using a randomly large number, since the Bible claims just one of the tribes had more than 600,000, if I recall correctly] running from Egypt to Egypt, a bit like saying "We fled from the United States and went to Alaska!".

2) Even if we give the benefit of the doubt and say that the ten names (out of ~90 on the list) were ONLY used by the Hebrews, it begs the question of who were these non-Hebrews? Were there as many of their people in Egypt as there were Hebrews? Were they let go along with the Hebrews? Did they suffer as the Egyptians did in the plagues? Why don't we see any stories from those peoples about their time in captivity in Egypt?

3) Even the article admits the document, being from the southern regions of Egypt, and thus far from Goshen (where the Bible claims the Hebrews were living while enslaved), doesn't give evidence of the Goshen populace. I'm wondering whether they were all released at once, or if the Goshen population pillaged their way through half of Egypt to get to this southern group before turning west toward the Red Sea (as the northernmost tip of the Red Sea requires a walk SOUTH of nearly 200 miles before turning east to reach the northernmost tip of the Gulf of Suez... check a map. I've seen speculation that they went into the Sinai and then turned south to reach the tip of the peninsula before crossing the Gulf of Aquaba into what is now Saudi Arabia, where the famous "parting of the sea" supposedly occurred-- the problem being that the Egyptians militarily controlled the Sinai, as well, and you're high off your ass if you think they couldn't catch the "escapees" before the far side of the Sinai peninsula.

Quote:Holy crap, he really thinks the Papyrus Brooklyn proves the Hebrews were slaves en masse in Egypt?

Yeah.... he saw it in a film by some bible-thumping moron.  For a guy who thinks "Adam" was real that's good enough.

(April 10, 2016 at 11:17 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: How could the Jews have kept track of which Abrahamic tribe they descended from through 400 years of slavery?  Where did they keep the records? How did each tribe stay in tact when children were bought and sold by the Egyptians (according to Christian mythology not historical fact.)

They didn't, they kept track from the descendants of David and merely believed that David was descended from the mythical patriarchs.

(April 10, 2016 at 11:17 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: I've heard it said that Judaism did not exist until after the common era. I haven't found enough evidence to give credulity to this assertion, but if anyone here has evidence, please share it.

That's laughable since some of the Qumran scrolls date to the 2nd century BC, including the Great Isaiah Scroll.

(April 10, 2016 at 11:17 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: if in fact, Moses authored the Pentateuch, why does he call god Elohim in the first chapter of genesis but Yahweh in the second chapter? and if Moses did not write it, what else about the Jewish story is a big fabrication?

Moses wasn't fabricated, he's a mythical character. There's a big difference.

Quote:That's laughable since some of the Qumran scrolls date to the 2nd century BC, including the Great Isaiah Scroll.

Rabbinic judaism, which is what we have now, dates from the destruction of the temple in 70.  Prior to that it was a silly cult based on animal sacrifice.

Quote:Moses wasn't fabricated, he's a mythical character. There's a big difference.

This I've gotta hear.

(April 10, 2016 at 10:02 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: I've been mentally running down a list of problems that would be created by the PB, if it literally was evidence of a massive Hebrew slave population in Egypt at the time-period the story claims.

Man your memory must be as long as your little... toe.
We've already had a discussion that answer all your concerns based on the information found in the 'Patterns of Evidence: The exodus' Documentary.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464018/
Remember you can watch this on net flix.

Quote:1) The first and most obvious is that Egypt owned the entire region of Canaan at that time, and were engaged in battles in the northern part of that land to keep out the Hittites. Not only does that mean that the Egyptians would have brought slaves back from that region (making it hardly surprising that you'd find Semitic names on their list), but it means that if we accept the story, the entire Exodus was half a million Hebrews [ETA: I'm not trying to give a definitive number, here... only using a randomly large number, since the Bible claims just one of the tribes had more than 600,000, if I recall correctly] running from Egypt to Egypt, a bit like saying "We fled from the United States and went to Alaska!".

"After God smote it with 10 plagues which took the Egyptians acouple hundred years to recover from (The Time between the middle and new kingdoms.)

Quote:2) Even if we give the benefit of the doubt and say that the ten names (out of ~90 on the list) were ONLY used by the Hebrews, it begs the question of who were these non-Hebrews?

What makes you think the other names were non hebrew names? They were common names. one can no more discern a persons heritage if he adopts or more likely is given a name by his master. (Toby/Kunta-kente')

Quote:Were there as many of their people in Egypt as there were Hebrews?
Were they let go along with the Hebrews? Did they suffer as the Egyptians did in the plagues? Why don't we see any stories from those peoples about their time in captivity in Egypt?

Your questions wrongly presuppose 'freedom' in emperial Egypt under second kingdom rule. After the famine and the consolidation of egypt under one 'pharaoh' Everything and everyone one belonged to one man. In a sense the whole nation of Egypt was a slave. (Because the famine was excessively great and long everyone sold everything they owned to Joseph's Pharaoh and when they ran out of lands and live stock, they sold themselves... Everyone. Before that Egypt was sub divided into city states with controlling regents or governors.)

That said not all slave tasks/life styles were the same, Some under pharaoh lived very well and were thus provided a very good life for their abilities and efforts.

That said all Slaves would not consider themselves slaves, but merely Egyptians just one or two generations into captivity, as Everyone (all Egyptians) were owned by the state.

Quote:3) Even the article admits the document, being from the southern regions of Egypt, and thus far from Goshen (where the Bible claims the Hebrews were living while enslaved), doesn't give evidence of the Goshen populace.

No but the excavations mentioned in the movie puts the number @ 3/4 of a million people, it at the time of the exodus, but it also mentions 25 to 30 other small towns and villages in the immediate region. All of which have been documented to be semetic as well as the city in goshen.

Quote:I'm wondering whether they were all released at once, or if the Goshen population pillaged their way through half of Egypt to get to this southern group before turning west toward the Red Sea (as the northernmost tip of the Red Sea requires a walk SOUTH of nearly 200 miles before turning east to reach the northernmost tip of the Gulf of Suez... check a map. I've seen speculation that they went into the Sinai and then turned south to reach the tip of the peninsula before crossing the Gulf of Aquaba into what is now Saudi Arabia, where the famous "parting of the sea" supposedly occurred-- the problem being that the Egyptians militarily controlled the Sinai, as well, and you're high off your ass if you think they couldn't catch the "escapees" before the far side of the Sinai peninsula.

What makes you think the wealth of egypt was spread out over the whole country side? As with most Ancient cities Egypt's wealth was concentrated in it's capitol. Why would Pharaoh want his wealth spread out in regions where his rule and control was not as tight or absolute as in his capitol city?

(April 10, 2016 at 9:35 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Holy crap, he really thinks the Papyrus Brooklyn proves the Hebrews were slaves en masse in Egypt?

All it has is a list of "Asiatic" servants (which indicates the entire region of western Asia, including Canaan), many of whom have Semitic names, and ten of whom have names that we associate with Hebrew.

None of that demonstrates a damned thing in the Genesis/Exodus stories are true. It only indicates that the Egyptians had house servants (mainly female) who came from Semitic regions, which by the way they had conquered at that period of history (so it's hardly surprising they'd bring back slaves from that region). The rest is wishful thinking on your part.

And that "it's a title" defense is horse shit. "Adonai" is a title (meaning Lord, in the same sense that we'd use it in English to reference a nobleman or anyone who rules us, including a deity). El or Eloah is a singular word meaning "god", and Elohim is its plural. Period.

John 8: 31-33 Wrote:31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

Jesus did not refute them.

Quote:We've already had a discussion that answer all your concerns based on the information found in the 'Patterns of Evidence: The exodus' Documentary.

Yes...and Patterns of Evidence was fucking bullshit from the word go.  Just some bible-thumper having a long series of brain farts trying to save his holy horseshit from the dustbin of history...where it belongs.