(April 19, 2016 at 12:41 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(April 19, 2016 at 11:57 am)paulpablo Wrote: It's a good question, how do you determine what should be available?

Personally for me I couldn't give a simple blanket statement for such a complex question and I'd have to judge each case individually.

Example.
Should the NHS pay for plastic surgery if someone has a big nose.  If someone has a little bit of an oversized nose but is emotionally unstable in dealing with it then I'd say no, maybe some therapy, if sufficient funds are available and it doesn't hold up anyone else waiting for more important treatment.
If someone had a nose that was 5 inches long then I'd definitely consider surgery for that person.  But that would have to be in a situation where money is available and there aren't people waiting for more important treatments.

So what about a person with a 4 inch lump on their face compared to a 4 inch nose? Or a 3 inch nose?

The problem is that the lines that you choose are arbitrary and are based on your own personal feelings and cannot be explained to other people. You are using a top down approach whereas you should be using a bottom up approach. You could instead ask the following questions:


How does the medical condition effect the quality of life of the patient?
Will the medical condition heal itself or does the patient have it for life?
What are consequences of not treating the patient?
Will we be having to treat other related medical conditions instead if we don't treat it?
How much does the treatment cost?
How effective is the treatment?
Are there other forms of treatment that we can consider instead and do they work?
How does this compare to other medical conditions and treatments?
Would our money improve more people's lives for the better if we spent it elsewhere?

Well yeh these are great questions.  But I'd also add the question of how stable is the health service and are all other emergency waiting times acceptable and well funded. Because medical emergencies generally should take priority over emotional distress.

If we're all perfectly willing to let people spend ridiculous amounts of money and time to body-mod themselves until they look like cats, jigsaw puzzles, and lizard people with forked tongues and horns, I really don't see why we have to be so up in arms about somebody who wants to look like the gender that is traditionally counter-posed to their biological sex. I'm a pink wizard; more than half of my clothing was made for women, and I'm a cis-gendered heterosexual male. I wish people would just get the fuck over themselves and leave each other alone.

(April 19, 2016 at 12:45 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(April 19, 2016 at 12:37 pm)Losty Wrote: I can't find any peer reviewed articles on it. Not even 1

Is your concern that it doesn't exist?

My concern is that it's not well studied.

I wouldn't go as far as to say someone cannot experience dysphoria as a result of believing they're the wrong species. But I would say it's a strictly mental issue.

A human being simply cannot be born with a fox brain.

It's different with gender dysphoria as its a physical and mental issue. A human being born with a male body and a female brain or a female body and a male brain. Now mentally suffering dysphoria as a result of a real physical problem.

(April 19, 2016 at 12:56 pm)Losty Wrote:

(April 19, 2016 at 12:45 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Is your concern that it doesn't exist?

My concern is that it's not well studied.

I wouldn't go as far as to say someone cannot experience dysphoria as a result of believing they're the wrong species. But I would say it's a strictly mental issue.

A human being simply cannot be born with a fox brain.

It's different with gender dysphoria as its a physical and mental issue. A human being born with a male body and a female brain or a female body and a male brain. Now mentally suffering dysphoria as a result of a real physical problem.

Ok but can I just show you this article I found.  I don't know how valid it is but I think it's from a fairly reputable source and I'm sure there are counter opinions to the articles conclusions.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2...ale-brain/

Additionally, I don't really see the difference in the conclusion of what the person is going through.  Yeh a woman can't give birth to a fox.  Agreed.  But both people experiencing distress from feeling they are in the wrong body because of something happening within the brain.

This is from the article.
“There are not two types of brain”
When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

Scans prove there’s no such thing as a ‘male’ or ‘female’ brain

(April 19, 2016 at 1:06 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(April 19, 2016 at 12:56 pm)Losty Wrote: My concern is that it's not well studied.

I wouldn't go as far as to say someone cannot experience dysphoria as a result of believing they're the wrong species. But I would say it's a strictly mental issue.

A human being simply cannot be born with a fox brain.

It's different with gender dysphoria as its a physical and mental issue. A human being born with a male body and a female brain or a female body and a male brain. Now mentally suffering dysphoria as a result of a real physical problem.

Ok but can I just show you this article I found.  I don't know how valid it is but I think it's from a fairly reputable source and I'm sure there are counter opinions to the articles conclusions.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2...ale-brain/

Additionally, I don't really see the difference in the conclusion of what the person is going through.  Yeh a woman can't give birth to a fox.  Agreed.  But both people experiencing distress from feeling they are in the wrong body because of something happening within the brain.

This is from the article.
“There are not two types of brain”
When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

Scans prove there’s no such thing as a ‘male’ or ‘female’ brain

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...ne.0110830

This is difficult to wade through because it's long and rather boring. Also because it's adds a shit load of blog and media opinions vs scientific study. It annoyingly doesn't allow for copypasta, but I (possibly illegally??) took a screen shot.

From what I gathered men and women have the same brains that work in different ways.

It's a very controversial subject.

Still, even if you say men and women have no significant brain difference. It is possible for human beings to be men, women, both, or something in between. It's never possible for a human being to be a fox. No amount of species reassignment surgery will make a woman into a fox. It'd always still be fake and seems like it then wouldn't help the dysphoria anymore than sewing on a dildo would help a transman (which is probably none but that's just my opinion).


On a side note, do you think we should also deny surgery for people with Rokitansky syndrome, men with bladder exstophy, what about people who naturally have a female body (including breasts) but a penis instead of a vagina, men who are born with a penis that is divided and looks like a labia, women with abnormally large clitoris and no vaginal opening?

(April 19, 2016 at 12:20 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(April 19, 2016 at 12:10 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Oddly enough,  I can't find anything on that medical disorder.  One might be tempted to think you made that shit up.

So much for your expert opinion.

1) You made up that I have an expert opinion I never claimed I do.

2) You saying you're tempted to believe I made it up doesn't mean you can reliably conclude I did make it up.

It makes sense if some people feel distressed that they aren't the right gender some people might feel they aren't the right species.

Somedays I feel mildly upset that I wasn't born with the body of Mike Tyson, or Kobe Bryant.

Imagine waking up tomorrow, looking down, and seeing the opposite genitalia that you have now and have had your whole life. And guess what, society says too bad! Suck it up. Learn to live with it. You're just being shallow. No one is going to help you rectify the situation, and no one is going to understand why you are so upset.

That's not at all the same as wishing you were jacked like mike Tyson...

(April 19, 2016 at 1:38 pm)Losty Wrote:

(April 19, 2016 at 1:06 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Ok but can I just show you this article I found.  I don't know how valid it is but I think it's from a fairly reputable source and I'm sure there are counter opinions to the articles conclusions.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2...ale-brain/

Additionally, I don't really see the difference in the conclusion of what the person is going through.  Yeh a woman can't give birth to a fox.  Agreed.  But both people experiencing distress from feeling they are in the wrong body because of something happening within the brain.

This is from the article.
“There are not two types of brain”
When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

Scans prove there’s no such thing as a ‘male’ or ‘female’ brain

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...ne.0110830

This is difficult to wade through because it's long and rather boring. Also because it's adds a shit load of blog and media opinions vs scientific study. It annoyingly doesn't allow for copypasta, but I (possibly illegally??) took a screen shot.

From what I gathered men and women have the same brains that work in different ways.

It's a very controversial subject.

Still, even if you say men and women have no significant brain difference. It is possible for human beings to be men, women, both, or something in between. It's never possible for a human being to be a fox. No amount of species reassignment surgery will make a woman into a fox. It'd always still be fake and seems like it then wouldn't help the dysphoria anymore than sewing on a dildo would help a transman (which is probably none but that's just my opinion).


On a side note, do you think we should also deny surgery for people with Rokitansky syndrome, men with bladder exstophy, what about people who naturally have a female body (including breasts) but a penis instead of a vagina, men who are born with a penis that is divided and looks like a labia, women with abnormally large clitoris and no vaginal opening?

Well it may not be a fox they want to turn into, it could be a different ape other than human.  Plus their feelings may be different to yours on the surgery they want, they maybe really helped by a slight change in their ear shape or nasal surgery in order to look like a different species.

Also I don't think we should deny surgery for anyone except in some exceptional ethical circumstances.

No I meant do you think the insurance companies should deny it.

Also, it doesn't really matter what we think or how they feel. I'm more interested in what a psychiatrist has to say about it. If the experts say that species reassignment surgery would cure them of their dysphoria, if they experts say this is the best course of action, then the insurance they've been paying for should have to cover it. The same way it covers everything else doctors say are necessary.

Of course it will vary some depending on what insurance package they actually have.

(April 19, 2016 at 2:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(April 19, 2016 at 12:20 pm)paulpablo Wrote: 1) You made up that I have an expert opinion I never claimed I do.

2) You saying you're tempted to believe I made it up doesn't mean you can reliably conclude I did make it up.

It makes sense if some people feel distressed that they aren't the right gender some people might feel they aren't the right species.

Somedays I feel mildly upset that I wasn't born with the body of Mike Tyson, or Kobe Bryant.

Imagine waking up tomorrow, looking down, and seeing the opposite genitalia that you have now and have had your whole life.  And guess what, society says too bad!  Suck it up.  Learn to live with it.  You're just being shallow. No one is going to help you rectify the situation, and no one is going to understand why you are so upset.

That's not at all the same as wishing you were jacked like mike Tyson...

Why am I waking up with the opposite genitalia?  I possibly enough savings if I really want to buy surgery so I wouldn't have to suck it up, it might deplete my savings but I'd survive.  

If I was transformed into a good looking female there'd be no issue at all I'd just have great lesbian sex forever and not have to worry about STDs

(April 19, 2016 at 12:20 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(April 19, 2016 at 12:10 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Oddly enough,  I can't find anything on that medical disorder.  One might be tempted to think you made that shit up.

So much for your expert opinion.

Somedays I feel mildly upset that I wasn't born with the body of Mike Tyson, or Kobe Bryant.

It's nothing like wishing you had the body of Mike Tyson. Trust me.