(April 23, 2016 at 12:31 am)Evie Wrote:

(April 23, 2016 at 12:01 am)Losty Wrote: Maybe not. Still in that case if somewhere were maybe sentenced to life in prison without parole, that someone is still a human being. They still get my empathy. I will still advocate for them to receive mental health care, be treated with basic human decency, and be allowed to maintain their dignity as a person.

Also, thank you for saying I did a good job wording my feelings

One of the many reasons turtle and kitten are besties is because we both agree on matters of justice. Justice is not about retribution. Retributive ethics are not just. No one should be punished "because they deserve it" people should only be punished when it's better for everyone. Justice, empathy and above all compassion and humanism is for everyone. Just because the phrase "just deserts" contains the word "just" doesn't mean it is just. It's not about deserving things it's about helping and protecting everyone, mitigating harm, aiding recovery, rehabilitation when possible and detainment when necessary. Maximum quality of life for all. Compassion for all, focus on those who are most needy and victimised but still, compassion for all. Everyone matters, everyone is human. Everyone does what they can do. Empathy is human and empathy is humane

This is beautiful.  Wow.  You guys have given me a lot to think about.  (I think that some of my ideas about punishment are still mired in the old testament, even though I wasn't really aware of it.)  I like your take on justice a lot better.  Thanks Evie - Losty - 

My husband asked me a very good question.

Everyone is worried that some man is going to dress up like a woman and go into the women's room to spy on women.

...with the North Carolina laws, what's to stop a man from going into the women's room to spy on women, and saying "Well I'm a Trans-Male, I belong here" when he's CIS Male?

(April 23, 2016 at 12:55 pm)Cecelia Wrote: My husband asked me a very good question.

Everyone is worried that some man is going to dress up like a woman and go into the women's room to spy on women.

...with the North Carolina laws, what's to stop a man from going into the women's room to spy on women, and saying "Well I'm a Trans-Male, I belong here" when he's CIS Male?

The same thing that stops them after the laws are made. Nothing. However, if the behavior of anyone in that bathroom, male or female, makes people uncomfortable, then they can leave the bathroom and call security, like we've always done. That's how we catch the guys who actually do that.

And how does a man go into a women's room to "spy on women", anyway? Don't they have stalls in the bathrooms for privacy?

It's like saying "What if lesbians look at me while I'm in there?"

The real problem is that they're pushing this "men are rapists" paranoia (along with the sickening, "what about the chiiiillllldrrrreeeen?" crap) in order to target a hated demographic, who have been casually using the restroom appropriate to their gender (not their sex) for decades/centuries, without anyone noticing. It will make the lives of actual transgendered people much harder without actually doing anything different to the perpetrators we're discussing.

(April 23, 2016 at 12:55 pm)Cecelia Wrote: My husband asked me a very good question.

Everyone is worried that some man is going to dress up like a woman and go into the women's room to spy on women.

...with the North Carolina laws, what's to stop a man from going into the women's room to spy on women, and saying "Well I'm a Trans-Male, I belong here" when he's CIS Male?

What? The North Carolina law bans trans people from using the appropriate bathroom so what's to stop him would be that regardless of whether he is cis male or she is trans female neither are allowed in the women's restroom.

My question: if it's already a felony to peep on someone in the bathroom then why would the threat of a misdemeanor be what stops people?

(April 23, 2016 at 1:03 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(April 23, 2016 at 12:55 pm)Cecelia Wrote: My husband asked me a very good question.

Everyone is worried that some man is going to dress up like a woman and go into the women's room to spy on women.

...with the North Carolina laws, what's to stop a man from going into the women's room to spy on women, and saying "Well I'm a Trans-Male, I belong here" when he's CIS Male?

The same thing that stops them after the laws are made. Nothing. However, if the behavior of anyone in that bathroom, male or female, makes people uncomfortable, then they can leave the bathroom and call security, like we've always done. That's how we catch the guys who actually do that.

And how does a man go into a women's room to "spy on women", anyway? Don't they have stalls in the bathrooms for privacy?

It's like saying "What if lesbians look at me while I'm in there?"

The real problem is that they're pushing this "men are rapists" paranoia (along with the sickening, "what about the chiiiillllldrrrreeeen?" crap) in order to target a hated demographic, who have been casually using the restroom appropriate to their gender (not their sex) for decades/centuries, without anyone noticing. It will make the lives of actual transgendered people much harder without actually doing anything different to the perpetrators we're discussing.

If you're genuinely asking how do men spy on women in their toilets there are many ways.  A lot of toilets at least in the UK have stalls where the side panels don't touch the floor.  In a similar fashion the stalls don't always have panels that reach the ceiling.
There's video cameras that can be used, and mirrors too but I'm assuming the mirrors are just used if the toilet stall panels aren't touching the floor or ceiling. Holes can also be made in the side of panels.

Now incase the same thing that happened last time when I said toilets are sometimes guarded or locked, and people strawman me to death I'll explain some stuff to avoid unnecessary questions.

No I'm not saying men do this all the time, no I'm not saying there's a man constantly in every toilet doing this, I'm not saying it's happened in your local toilets or happened to you, and don't ask me dishonest questions like "Apart from the cases you know of this happening when does this happen?"  Or anything along those lines.

On the subject of transgender, I was reminded of a conversation that I had a few years ago with an army nurse - about an injury she had recently treated.  A soldier had stepped on a mine, and lost his leg and his penis.  She said that only a stub was left, and they had to put him on suicide watch.  I said "suicide watch?" and she replied "oh yes.  Any soldier who has an injury to the genital area - it's standard."  She went on to say that the average male would rather lose arms or legs than their penis.  I have asked male friends about this, both straight and gay, and they agree.  (Being a lesbian, I was just amazed by this.)
   So - - a transgender male - - is a different animal.  The majority of transgender males can't wait until they have the money and the opportunity to get the damn thing CUT OFF.  
   Call it anything you will, but for me, that makes me have a lot more empathy for my trans friends.

(April 23, 2016 at 1:04 pm)Losty Wrote: What? The North Carolina law bans trans people from using the appropriate bathroom so what's to stop him would be that regardless of whether he is cis male or she is trans female neither are allowed in the women's restroom.

I said Trans-male, not trans-female. 

A trans-male would be required (under North Carolina Law) to use the women's restroom, and not the men's restroom.  Despite having the appearance of a man. 

Under the North Carolina Law, if a CIS-Male so wanted to go into the women's restroom for nefarious purposes, they would merely need to claim that they are trans-male (Born female, but had reassignment surgery).  (Same goes with CIS-Females and the men's room, but that takes more time to type out.).

(April 23, 2016 at 1:30 pm)Cecelia Wrote:

(April 23, 2016 at 1:04 pm)Losty Wrote: What? The North Carolina law bans trans people from using the appropriate bathroom so what's to stop him would be that regardless of whether he is cis male or she is trans female neither are allowed in the women's restroom.

I said Trans-male, not trans-female. 

A trans-male would be required (under North Carolina Law) to use the women's restroom, and not the men's restroom.  Despite having the appearance of a man. 

Under the North Carolina Law, if a CIS-Male so wanted to go into the women's restroom for nefarious purposes, they would merely need to claim that they are trans-male (Born female, but had reassignment surgery).  (Same goes with CIS-Females).

Usually if a trans male has had reassignment surgery, they easily pass as female.  I know a guy who has had the surgery and, well . . . he still looks really butch (male jaw line and adam's apple have not been altered yet) but - - most would fool you.

(April 23, 2016 at 1:33 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Usually if a trans male has had reassignment surgery, they easily pass as female.  I know a guy who has had the surgery and, well . . . he still looks really butch (male jaw line and adam's apple have not been altered yet) but - - most would fool you.

I think you mean trans-female. 

trans-male is assigned female at birth, but identifies male.
trans-female is assigned male at birth, but identifies female.

(April 23, 2016 at 1:03 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: The real problem is that they're pushing this "men are rapists" paranoia (along with the sickening, "what about the chiiiillllldrrrreeeen?" crap) in order to target a hated demographic, who have been casually using the restroom appropriate to their gender (not their sex) for decades/centuries, without anyone noticing. It will make the lives of actual transgendered people much harder without actually doing anything different to the perpetrators we're discussing.

The intent is to discriminate. I don't think it's about men are rapists. Otherwise they would have passed a bill forbidding men to enter women's restrooms instead of aiming at transsexuals.