(May 31, 2016 at 12:00 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(May 31, 2016 at 10:22 am)paulpablo Wrote: How many bankrupcies and out of how many businesses?

Whats his ROI compared to an S&P 500 index fund?

I just looked this up on google. Just because there's an investment he could have made to earn him more money doesn't necessarily mean he's unsuccessful as a businessman

Basically the claim made by websites if you type sp 500 index fund Donald trump into Google is that he could have been richer by investing in this specific fund, but so what? There's probably loads of investments he could have made to make him even richer than he already is. He's possibly a good businessman but not a fortune teller.

(May 31, 2016 at 12:04 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(May 31, 2016 at 12:00 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Whats his ROI compared to an S&P 500 index fund?

I just looked this up on google. Just because there's an investment he could have made to earn him more money doesn't necessarily mean he's unsuccessful as a businessman

Yes, it does.

If you can park your money in an index fund and do nothing else and earn more money than if you chose your own investments / business opportunities, it means that you made poor choices. The S&P 500 is literally the benchmark that equity investments are compared to.

In other words, he would have been outperformed by people who know jack shit about investing and business and instead choose to put their money in an investment vehicle that literally requires zero thought or skill.

Trump underperformed that benchmark by a wide margin. If he was managing other people's money instead of his own, he would have been fired - long ago.

(May 31, 2016 at 1:37 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(May 31, 2016 at 12:04 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I just looked this up on google. Just because there's an investment he could have made to earn him more money doesn't necessarily mean he's unsuccessful as a businessman

Yes, it does.

If you can park your money in an index fund and do nothing else and earn more money than if you chose your own investments / business opportunities, it means that you made poor choices. The S&P 500 is literally the benchmark that equity investments are compared to.

In other words, he would have been outperformed by people who know jack shit about investing and business and instead choose to put their money in an investment vehicle that literally requires zero thought or skill.

Trump underperformed that benchmark by a wide margin. If he was managing other people's money instead of his own, he would have been fired - long ago.

I don't know much about investments, but I find it hard to believe this billionaire is not a successful businessman because he didn't invest in this specific thing.
Most businesses fail, so even if Donald trump has broke above even it's still successful.

Still a cunt and a shitty businessman.

(May 31, 2016 at 3:00 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I don't know much about investments, but I find it hard to believe this billionaire is not a successful businessman because he didn't invest in this specific thing.
Most businesses fail, so even if Donald trump has broke above even it's still successful.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Let me break it down.

In order to determine whether a thing is "good" or "bad", one must have a standard to judge it against.

In the investing world, one such benchmark is the S&P 500. There are others, but this is suitable for our purposes.

Any drooling idiot can invest in a mutual fund that achieves the returns of the S&P 500 index. This is done by virtue of the mutual fund being invested in all 500 companies that comprise the fund, weighted exactly as they are in the index. Minus brokerage fees (which for no-load funds are minimal), any drooling idiot can match the performance of the S&P 500. Performance is measured by the metric "return on investment" (or ROI).

Or, one can do as Trump has chosen, which is to manage one's own portfolio of investments, who's performance is likewise going to be measured by the same metric, ROI.

Trump's ROI on the money he inherited lags the ROI of the S&P 500 over the lifetime of his investing career. Ergo, Trump has underperformed an investment vehicle suitable for those who know absolutely nothing of investment and business, and who may in fact be drooling morons. Trump would be more successful if he had simply put his inheritance into index mutual funds and gone off to work on his golf game. Ergo, Trump is a bad (albeit rich) businessman - but his riches have little to do with his business acumen.

Now, if Trump had made wise investment choices, with his inherited wealth, it should be no problem at all to at least match investment benchmarks. He has failed to do so, ergo he has made unwise business decisions, and is in fact a poor businessman.

If you don't understand the implications of the above, I cannot help you further.

(May 31, 2016 at 3:00 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I don't know much about investments

Oh - one more thing. Given the above admissions, what the hell do you think makes you qualified to judge whether or not he is a good businessman?

(May 31, 2016 at 3:15 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(May 31, 2016 at 3:00 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I don't know much about investments

Oh - one more thing. Given the above admissions, what the hell do you think makes you qualified to judge whether or not he is a good businessman?

I didn't make the claim very seriously, I was joining in with what napoleon was saying. But I have seen people who are businessmen argue better than I can that Donald trump is in fact a successful politician, businessman and author.
I'm very sceptical about claims he isn't successful due to his money, how it's very popular to criticise Donald trump and in my amateur opinion I can see holes in the arguments made claiming him not to be successful.
There are some pretty sensible articles out there which seem to be non bias and claim he was born into a good family, he's been through rough patches, but he's been intelligent in creating a brand and earning money from that brand in various ways.

(May 31, 2016 at 3:02 pm)Bella Morte Wrote: Still a cunt and a shitty businessman.

And someone operating - at the very least - at the brink of fraud with several of his endeavours. Someone not seeing that is either blind or didn't catch up on the news. It's not as if there hasn't been sufficient Trump coverage during the last decades.

And in what way has he ever been a politician, other than playing the Roman tribune now? All he ever did was selling his name. Successfully so, I give him that. He's shrewd in an Al Capone way, and when he claimed to be the master of debt, he didn't lie. He always knew how to wiggle out of his bankrupcies, but what the spotlight doesn't cover are the bodies of his creditors lining his way in the process. When he didn't feel like paying, he filed for yet another bankrupcy with one of his businesses And this has been in the news over and over for at least 20 years.

That's definetely not the way to run a country, since the international financial market isn't as stupid as some other businessmen falling for his schemes.

In what way has he ever been a politician? He's running for president.

(May 31, 2016 at 3:28 pm)paulpablo Wrote: But I have seen people who are businessmen argue better than I can that Donald trump is in fact a successful politician, businessman and author.

He hasn't ever held or run for elected office, or been appointed to any political position, so calling him a politician is pretty goddamned disingenuous. It is in fact a lie. Why would you believe such people?

Any such claims (i.e. those based upon wishful thinking rather than facts) ought to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. You know, the kind you're applying to his critics.