If I visited a school where all the girls were being bullied but the boys were not... and if it was for argument's sake impossible to even remotely reduce the bullying, I would not suggest we encourage bullying the boys as well just to be 'fair'. Because that's not 'fair' or 'equal'. That's sameness, not fairness or equality.

(July 1, 2016 at 4:31 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 1, 2016 at 4:24 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: The point is, Thump, just because we have to treat one side unfairly for legal reasons [...]

Stop right there. You are not required by law to treat the two genders differently. If you wish to argue otherwise, please cite the US Code with a link.

You can treat both genders equally. The law does not forbid that in this context.

You're right back to this. We are required to treat females unfairly and your solution then is that we should treat males unfairly as well. We disagree.

(July 1, 2016 at 3:36 am)robvalue Wrote: Sure, it's the minimum. But we see no worthwhile case to do more than the minimum at this current time.

Speaking personally, I think the damage that could be done to the forum as a whole by making an isolated stand against a not-particularly-hot issue is not worth the negligible benefit of doing so.

Just gonna repeat this as it seems to have gone under the radar.

We're not required to do anything more than the law. Whether we should or not, is a matter of opinion. We have discussed it, and reached our conclusion.

(July 1, 2016 at 4:34 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 1, 2016 at 4:31 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: We, the Staff,  have thought about it Thump, we had a whole Staff thread discussing it.

That's great.

I'm reminded of Petain's quip in 1940: "It'll take us six months to consider it, and six months to forget about it."

And here now you are trying to imply that we didn't really consider it. I'm sorry that I'm hurt by that. I'm sorry that I expected better from you...

(July 1, 2016 at 4:43 am)Losty Wrote:

(July 1, 2016 at 4:34 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: That's great.

I'm reminded of Petain's quip in 1940: "It'll take us six months to consider it, and six months to forget about it."

And here now you are trying to imply that we didn't really consider it. I'm sorry that I'm hurt by that. I'm sorry that I expected better from you...

I saw little consideration on this side of the screen.

(July 1, 2016 at 4:35 am)Losty Wrote:

(July 1, 2016 at 4:28 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Well, firstly as I am voicing my opinion, asking for evidence is a bit of a non sequitur -- opinions don't require evidence.

I've done my best to argue my opinion. If y'all don't agree, no big deal. Neither of us can prove our own opinions "right", because that is not in the nature of opinions. That sort of judgement is assessed against facts, not opinions.

As for what I want, I want you guys on the Staff to think about these things. I want you guys to stop looking at the law as a backstop. I want you guys to be better than that.

I'm not upset or angry with you, and I'm sorry if my posting is angering you; that's not my intent. I hope you don't think I've been uncivil.

It's not, Thump. I'm just getting frustrated because I don't care about debating this topic at all. I am seriously only here because I care about you as a member of this forum and a friend. I am trying really hard to show you that I have very seriously considered this subject. I have thought about it. I have thought about everything you have said. I have genuinely considered all arguments contrary to mine. And while I still do not agree I respect you for having a different opinion than me. I'm only upset because I seriously do not understand what more you want from me than this.

It's not that I want something from you -- this is not personal. I don't doubt you're spending probably too much time on this crap. And I should probably just shut my goddamned trap about it already.

I don't want to be the fly in the ointment, so you know, maybe it's time to do the Longview Hotfoot. No one likes an asshole at the party .. I'll shut the fuck up already.

(July 1, 2016 at 4:35 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 1, 2016 at 4:33 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: We have to treat one side unfairly because we can't legally allow females to post their boobs. We're not going to stop men posting because that would be twice as unfair. Sameness is not fairness. Unfair for both sides is not more fair than unfair for one side.

How is asking all people to abide the same code of conduct unfair?

We already require all people to abide by the same rule. We do not have a separate set of rules for each gender.

You don't get to see the staff area. Please stop making assumptions about it. There's a whole invisible forum.

So no, you didn't see the discussion on your screen. Correct.

(July 1, 2016 at 4:44 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 1, 2016 at 4:43 am)Losty Wrote: And here now you are trying to imply that we didn't really consider it. I'm sorry that I'm hurt by that. I'm sorry that I expected better from you...

I saw little consideration on this side of the screen.

Jesus I don't know what the hell we have been doing all this time? I get it, you're upset because people laughed and made jokes. To say there wasn't consideration in this thread is a flat out lie. Have I not been making serious thoughtful posts all day?

I will apologize for having a laugh at heatheness' thread during the first half as soon as she gives a genuine apology for the accusation she made at me in a post and the accusations she made at the entire staff in PM. Until then no I will not.

But I have been taking this seriously since the thread reopened and so has everyone else. And many people took it seriously the whole time.

I'm just going to go ahead and say it.  The point of the op..was to troll staff.  Well played OP, well played. Hopefully this thread has brought the satisfaction that was sought. Yet another service AF provides.

In talking about what is fair treatment of the sexes, I think a distinction has to be made between gender equality and gender parity. Gender equality is treating the two sexes the same, regardless of any sexual differences which exist. Gender parity is giving each sex equivalent rights and access to resources. In gender parity, what matters is that both sexes receive treatment that is of equal value, not necessarily the same. This is because real differences do exist and so treating both sexes the same would actually lead to unfairness toward one sex or the other. Thus we have insurance policies that cover prostrate exams for men, and gynecological exams for women. This isn't sexist because it's not the same because there is gender parity. I think the same applies in the case of male breasts. There is a difference in the sexual function of breasts between men and women in that female breasts are sexualized. To treat both sexes equally would be to imply that the male breast is equally sexualized and lead to repression of bare breasted male pics. That isn't eliminating unfairness, that's introducing it. Women aren't required to suppress images of nonsexual parts of their bodies, so the rights have been made unequal. That's gender equality but not gender parity. And I think the goal of fairness should be aimed at the latter, not the former.