What causes us to go left rather than right? Causes that are ultimately beyond our conscious self, both genetic and stretching back into the past before living things (or even the earth) even existed.

(July 16, 2016 at 1:56 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: What causes us to go left rather than right?

The choice of free will.

(July 16, 2016 at 1:52 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote:

(July 16, 2016 at 1:46 am)Maelstrom Wrote: Yes, I can account for choosing one over the other.  It is due to me having the free will to choose between two different things.

Anyone else notice how if free will is the ability to choose one option over an other and one can account for it by having free will then that's a massively circular argument?

"How do you have free will?"

"By choosing one option over an other."

"How do you choose one option over an other?"

"With free will."

"How is the Bible true?"

"Because God wrote it."

"How can we trust what God writes?"

"Because the Bible says so."

^^^ Equivalents ^^^. It's theist logic.

Anyone else notice that Kitan/Maelstrom is basically saying "I can account for choosing to do otherwise by choosing to do otherwise" or "I can account for free will by using my free will."?

I did see that, but, to be fair, I also kind of understand his point. He isn't concentrating on the issue in a scientific manner, and it isn't his fault, this notion is fairly common in people's heads. When he's talking about free will, he's actually talking about the effect of a given action, namely, that exact experience of deciding to do something over something else. He is trying to articulate the effect, whereas we are trying to steer him toward the cause.

Me being logical Wrote:If determinism is true a sentient entity cannot determine otherwise because there is no otherwise in determinism.

If indeterminism is true a sentient entity cannot determine otherwise because there is no determining in indeterminism.

(July 16, 2016 at 1:55 am)Maelstrom Wrote:

(July 16, 2016 at 1:53 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: Now let's think about something else. What do you suppose you are a product of, like without anything being left out? Would it be accurate to say that you are a product of your genes and your environment, and nothing else, as in, your whole being is only a mixture of those two influences?

With that line of questioning, you are leaving free will and getting into something else.  

I will not derail.

It may seem like it, but I assure you, I am not. Just bear with me for a second, if you will.

My reaction is very scientific.

Given a choice, one has options. Usually, one of two.

Free will is just that.

Quote:the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(July 16, 2016 at 1:59 am)Maelstrom Wrote: My reaction is very scientific.

Given a choice, one has options.  Usually, one of two.

Free will is just that.

Quote:the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

What we're trying to tell you is that there are processes going on in your brain, at any given moment, that you are absolutely unaware of. Those processes make up who you are and govern your actions, and you have absolutely no control over them. You can't control what you're thinking. That would mean you'd have to be thinking a thought before you're thinking it, which is nonsense. Just so, you can't decide what decisions you're going to make before making any decisions. All of these things, your thoughts, your actions, your decisions, you experience them, but you don't control them. You experience control, but you don't have it.

Whether or not I am aware or not of those processes, I still have the free will to choose between one option or another.

And if those processes are taking place while I am weighing one option over another, clearly I still have the free will to choose.

A process is just that. The process of deciding over one way or another.

(July 16, 2016 at 2:10 am)Maelstrom Wrote: Whether or not I am aware or not of those processes, I still have the free will to choose between one option or another.

And if those processes are taking place while I am weighing one option over another, clearly I still have the free will to choose.

A process is just that.  The process of deciding over one way or another.

Again, you're confusing your experience of what happens, with objective reality. Those are two very different things. You may feel like your weighing one option over the other, but you don't control what you're thinking about when you make the decision. You're not the originator of your thoughts. They just pop up into your awareness and you just go along with them. And the thoughts you think while you're making the decision are the way you decide. So your decision doesn't belong to you, not anymore than your thoughts do. Can you see what I'm saying?

No.

What happens is the aftermath.

Free will is the the choice.

It is what happens before the aftermath.

How you cannot understand this is baffling.