(July 29, 2016 at 12:39 am)PETE_ROSE Wrote:

(July 28, 2016 at 11:37 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: (emphasis is mine)

In other words, it's really all our fault.

Bullshit!

An omniscient, omnipotent gawd (as purported by the buy-bull) would have been able to see what would become of it's creation, enabling it to plan accordingly to avoid the atrocities. In plain words, your buy-bull puts forth the claim that gawd created us knowing that we would fall. Knowing that it would have to order, even commit atrocities and or/ stand by and watch them committed in it's name.

My morality is greater than that of buy-bull gawd in the simple fact that if I witnessed a rape/murder/etc... I would try to stop it. Buy-bull gawd never does.

I concur that He did know man would fall; but man did have help in that. I do not wish to enter into the free will rabbit hole but to have love and a relationship there must be free will and a choice. So yes, He did know, yet provided a way to reconcile us to Him in the end.

To say your morality is greater I would disagree as you lack a standard to compare that to because all perceived humanistic morality is subjective.

You said that you would stop a rape/murder therefore you are more moral than God? I wouldn't lift a finger to stop you from murdering a pedophile.

Nearly everyone here complains that God does not stop evil, murder, suffering in the world. Yet they cannot wait to condemn Him for eliminating an immoral and evil people from the land in the Old Testament. We cannot have it both ways.

Error. Atheists point to God not stopping evil as evidence of god's nonexistence. We condemn God for murder because the evil was commited by followers acting in a gods name or did not happen at all. The evil acts in myth and supports the spread of an evil philosophy. We certainly can have it both ways.

OK I have I question for real christian: If someone offered you $100.000 to say "I love Satan and I worship Lucifer more then anything in my life" would you do it? You would do it in the private with only the person that's offering you money as witness.

I wouldn't serve anything or anyone, even if the bible stuff were true. I have a dignity, ffs!

(July 26, 2016 at 9:55 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(July 26, 2016 at 9:51 pm)Mamacita Wrote: Pete, my man! Hell to the nah!
Former Christian here. Fundie, actually. Bible school after high school and before college. Pastor parents. Former preacher myself. Yeah, I did the looney talk behind the pulpit. Christian enough for ya?

'Kay. The answer is nope. Never would I worship the god of the Christian Bible were he proven to be real. The dude's a dick. Oh, and yes, I know the Bible. Want verses?

Wait, you couldn't have been a real Christian™.

If you were you wouldn't have been a preacher.  Because the bible clearly states that a woman should remain quiet...

That's her problem. She opened her mouth! I also don't believe you guys when you say you would choose hell over following him. Talk is easy. That's like those people who say if so and so is elected they will move to another country. Never happens.

(August 20, 2016 at 3:40 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 26, 2016 at 9:55 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Wait, you couldn't have been a real Christian™.

If you were you wouldn't have been a preacher.  Because the bible clearly states that a woman should remain quiet...

That's her problem.  She opened her mouth!  I also don't believe you guys when you say you would choose hell over following him.  Talk is easy.  That's like those people who say if so and so is elected they will move to another country.  Never happens.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "hell". Some Christians maintain that it is a place of eternal torment -- fire and brimstone, the works; others seem to think it is some realm of eternal separation from God but without the lurid Dante-esque details; still others claim that it is a literal extinction of the individual -- death as opposed to eternal life. And I've heard even other speculations about what it might be.

Since you guys can't get your shit together after two millennia and agree on the meaning of a cornerstone of your own faith, you really have no reason to chide others for taking the entire notion rather lightly. And yeah, Yahweh, as depicted, is a dick. But so what? He is a character in a book, and hell is a bogeyman story contained in the same book. Neither have been demonstrated to be any more true than Jack and the Beanstalk. They're just more effective recruiting tools, and there seems to be no end of people who fall for it. Not my problem.

(August 20, 2016 at 7:21 pm)Crossless1 Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 3:40 pm)Lek Wrote: That's her problem.  She opened her mouth!  I also don't believe you guys when you say you would choose hell over following him.  Talk is easy.  That's like those people who say if so and so is elected they will move to another country.  Never happens.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "hell". Some Christians maintain that it is a place of eternal torment -- fire and brimstone, the works; others seem to think it is some realm of eternal separation from God but without the lurid Dante-esque details; still others claim that it is a literal extinction of the individual -- death as opposed to eternal life. And I've heard even other speculations about what it might be.

Since you guys can't get your shit together after two millennia and agree on the meaning of a cornerstone of your own faith, you really have no reason to chide others for taking the entire notion rather lightly. And yeah, Yahweh, as depicted, is a dick. But so what? He is a character in a book, and hell is a bogeyman story contained in the same book. Neither have been demonstrated to be any more true than Jack and the Beanstalk. They're just more effective recruiting tools, and there seems to be no end of people who fall for it. Not my problem.

I prefer to go by the meanings of the original Greek words: "aionios kolasin"

http://christianspiritualism.org/article...ionios.htm

Matthew 25:46

Probably The Saddest Mistranslation In History. The unfortunate rendering is: "These shall go away into everlasting punishment"

However, the true rendering should be: "These shall go away into age-long pruning" or "These shall go away into age-lasting chastisement"

Etymologically, the words "aionios" and "aidios" possess a perceptible disparity because they have different roots - roots pertaining to "age": aion1, and "for ever": aei - ever, respectively. They are both used to convey the sense of lengthy periods of time, but the inference of "aionios", because it is derived from "age", is different to that of "aidios" because it is derived from "for ever". Even "aidios" with its sense of literal endlessness has been utilised to emphasise a point i.e. that "sinning in knowledge" has far worse consequences than "sinning in ignorance", as can be seen when this word is employed to describe the result of evolved spiritual beings sinning (Jude 6). "Aidios" can impinge upon the territory of "aionios" to emphasise a point, and in this case aidios is as strong a metaphor as can be devised - it is used rhetorically.

This word kolasin means "cutting back with a view to improvement" or "correctional chastisement", which fully describes what happens to the soul in the hells as the soul is purified through suffering before an initial repentance, and after repentance as the poor soul must progressively climb the steep hill to God from the darkness, depending on the depths to which it has sunk, up through the twilight, and towards the ever-increasing Light.

So let's see here. Become someone's eternal servant or get sent go the torture room by that very same person for not properly polishing his divine feet... and I'm supposed to actually worship this guy? Nah. I'm with Lucifer on this one (assuming he's real as well). At some point you just have to rebel against an oppressive tyrant.

(August 20, 2016 at 7:28 pm)Arkilogue Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 7:21 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: I suppose it depends on what you mean by "hell". Some Christians maintain that it is a place of eternal torment -- fire and brimstone, the works; others seem to think it is some realm of eternal separation from God but without the lurid Dante-esque details; still others claim that it is a literal extinction of the individual -- death as opposed to eternal life. And I've heard even other speculations about what it might be.

Since you guys can't get your shit together after two millennia and agree on the meaning of a cornerstone of your own faith, you really have no reason to chide others for taking the entire notion rather lightly. And yeah, Yahweh, as depicted, is a dick. But so what? He is a character in a book, and hell is a bogeyman story contained in the same book. Neither have been demonstrated to be any more true than Jack and the Beanstalk. They're just more effective recruiting tools, and there seems to be no end of people who fall for it. Not my problem.

I prefer to go by the meanings of the original Greek words: "aionios kolasin"

http://christianspiritualism.org/article...ionios.htm

Matthew 25:46

Probably The Saddest Mistranslation In History. The unfortunate rendering is: "These shall go away into everlasting punishment"

However, the true rendering should be: "These shall go away into age-long pruning" or "These shall go away into age-lasting chastisement"

Etymologically, the words "aionios" and "aidios" possess a perceptible disparity because they have different roots - roots pertaining to "age": aion1, and "for ever": aei - ever, respectively. They are both used to convey the sense of lengthy periods of time, but the inference of "aionios", because it is derived from "age", is different to that of "aidios" because it is derived from "for ever". Even "aidios" with its sense of literal endlessness has been utilised to emphasise a point i.e. that "sinning in knowledge" has far worse consequences than "sinning in ignorance", as can be seen when this word is employed to describe the result of evolved spiritual beings sinning (Jude 6). "Aidios" can impinge upon the territory of "aionios" to emphasise a point, and in this case aidios is as strong a metaphor as can be devised - it is used rhetorically.

This word kolasin means "cutting back with a view to improvement" or "correctional chastisement", which fully describes what happens to the soul in the hells as the soul is purified through suffering before an initial repentance, and after repentance as the poor soul must progressively climb the steep hill to God from the darkness, depending on the depths to which it has sunk, up through the twilight, and towards the ever-increasing Light.

That's nice, dear. Take it up with the other Christians. They might care.

Still, I appreciate the effort.

(July 26, 2016 at 9:42 pm)PETE_ROSE Wrote: Hope everyone is having a wonderful summer!  Thank you to everyone in the forum for your insightful contributions, I am always challenged intellectually with much of what I read here.   I have a quick question for my non theist compadres:  

If you discovered personally acceptable truth (whatever that may be for you) that the Christian God revealed in the bible was authentic, would you choose to serve and worship him?  If yes, why?  If no, feel free to elaborate as to why as well.  

I observe there are many former Christians and very knowledgable people here on the content of the bible, I look forward to hearing your responses.  

Again, I really do hope everyone is enjoying their summer!

No, I wouldn't worship him.

Because I don't want to.

Satan on the other hand, possibly.

(August 20, 2016 at 1:14 pm)Atheist_BG Wrote: I wouldn't serve anything or anyone, even if the bible stuff were true. I have a dignity, ffs!

So then you "serve" (act upon) dignity yes? Your actions are modified to being self consistent and integral? Being "true" to yourself? Some kind of internal feeling of consistency?

If you did not serve it, you wouldn't act in accordance with it.