(September 29, 2016 at 3:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote: ........beyond the fact that one is dead and one is living?

So far, you've identified two differences between a corpse and a person. One is "biological function", the other is life.  What constitutes evidence that a body is alive or dead?

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Point being, we can make a heart beat and blood pump. How about a person who's brain-dead: are they alive?

Have you put enough distance between yourself and your previous comments yet, or will 20 questions continue until you think everyone's forgotten?

I've identified a single difference between living people and dead people.  -The- difference, in context. Sure, we can make a heart beat and pump blood, we can even make artificial hearts. A person who is brain dead is alive, until we pull the plug, sure. It;s used as an indicator for legal death, though...gets the hospital off the hook for pulling that plug. Again, I think you're discussing legal terms and not biological states. May as well say "we're certainly not bodies because the law says so", and miss the entire discussion. It wouldn't be any more true, but it would be a fair bit less absurd.

(September 29, 2016 at 3:26 pm)Bunburryist Wrote:

(September 29, 2016 at 1:23 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: …Questioning the philosophical moves of Descartes, Hume and Kant is something unthinkable to anyone who is either unwilling or unable to consider how the larger culture channels their thinking toward the mechanistic assumptions that inform their commitments to materialism/physicalism.

As for the "metaphors of machine production," I see that in today's idea that our minds are "programs running in computer brains."

It may help you to know that I find myself increasing moving toward Thomistic philosophy. The mind-body problem did not arise until Descartes redefined substance. The binding problem did not exist until Hume re-defined efficient cause. And the materialism versus idealism debate did not exist until Kant re-defined concept formation. Each of these was a questionable philosophical move based on misinterpretations of Scholastic terms and concepts. I have tried to explain this in several threads for at least 3 years and it is only now that I understand that some other AF members are not so much resistant to the ideas; but rather, the mechanistic worldview is so pervasive that very few people can see how it channels their thinking.

(September 29, 2016 at 3:26 pm)Bunburryist Wrote: I know it's hard to get across, but my main point is that we are not "things in a world," that we really don't know what we are.

With respect to questions about the fundamental nature of reality, these are not all-or-nothing propositions. Some things cannot be known, like simulated reality scenarios. Some things cannot be fully known, like objects-in-themselves. Some things can be known absolutely, like the Principle of Non-Contradiction.

(September 29, 2016 at 4:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Have you put enough distance between yourself and your previous comments yet, or will 20 questions continue until you think everyone's forgotten?

I've identified a single difference between living people and dead people.  -The- difference, in context.  Sure, we can make a heart beat and pump blood, we can even make artificial hearts.  A person who is brain dead is alive, until we pull the plug, sure.  It;s used as an indicator for legal death, though...gets the hospital off the hook for pulling that plug.  Again, I think you're discussing legal terms and not biological states.  May as well say "we're certainly not bodies because the law says so", and miss the entire discussion.

I'm asserting that the person and the body are not the same.

Maybe you should change your approach, Chad?  Three years without getting the results I wanted, and I'd be fishing for a new method, myself.

(September 29, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Tangra Wrote:

(September 29, 2016 at 4:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Have you put enough distance between yourself and your previous comments yet, or will 20 questions continue until you think everyone's forgotten?

I've identified a single difference between living people and dead people.  -The- difference, in context.  Sure, we can make a heart beat and pump blood, we can even make artificial hearts.  A person who is brain dead is alive, until we pull the plug, sure.  It;s used as an indicator for legal death, though...gets the hospital off the hook for pulling that plug.  Again, I think you're discussing legal terms and not biological states.  May as well say "we're certainly not bodies because the law says so", and miss the entire discussion.

I'm asserting that the person and the body are not the same.

Yes, we know.....because, apparently, a dead body isn't still us.  Meanwhile, in the real world, they very much appear to be the same. I saw my dad on a slab years ago. It was my dad. I don't know what else to tell you. I don't think I would have mistaken someone who wasn't my dad, for my dad. Pretty familiar with the guy.

(September 29, 2016 at 4:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 29, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Tangra Wrote: I'm asserting that the person and the body are not the same.

Yes, we know.....because, apparently, a dead body isn't still us.  Meanwhile, in the real world, they very much appear to be the same. I saw my dad on a slab years ago.  It was my dad.  I don't know what else to tell you.

I am sorry for your loss. I personally haven't lost anyone very close to me.
Rhythm, I'm trying to illustrate a point, other than we are not the body. We are who we are. You are the person who is your father's son. You know your father better than anyone, probably. Your father is much more than 100kg of flesh and bone on a slab. We all are meatbags so to speak, we know that, but then what? Ending the conversation and the point where we are biological creatures with biological functions inhibits real research. The experience of life is not a biology text book.

(September 29, 2016 at 4:32 pm)Tangra Wrote: I am sorry for your loss. I personally haven't lost anyone very close to me.

Meh, no sense in tears and sorrow.  People die.  

Quote:Rhythm, I'm trying to illustrate a point, other than we are not the body. We are who we are. You are the person who is your father's son. You know your father better than anyone, probably. Your father is much more than 100kg of flesh and bone on a slab.

Not as a corpse he wasn't, that's about 200 some odd pounds right?

Quote:We all are meatbags so to speak, we know that, but then what?

What "then" is probably a better question.  Like I said, then it's friday.....if it happened on a thursday.

Quote:Ending the conversation and the point where we are biological creatures with biological functions inhibits real research. 

It doesn't seem to............... What's "real research", in your opinion?

Quote:The experience of life is not a biology text book.

-and?

(September 29, 2016 at 4:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 29, 2016 at 4:32 pm)Tangra Wrote: I am sorry for your loss. I personally haven't lost anyone very close to me.

Meh, no sense in tears and sorrow.  People die.  

Quote:Rhythm, I'm trying to illustrate a point, other than we are not the body. We are who we are. You are the person who is your father's son. You know your father better than anyone, probably. Your father is much more than 100kg of flesh and bone on a slab.

Not as a corpse he wasn't, that's about 200 some odd pounds right?

Quote:We all are meatbags so to speak, we know that, but then what?

What "then" is probably a better question.  Like I said, then it's friday.....if it happened on a thursday.

Quote:Ending the conversation and the point where we are biological creatures with biological functions inhibits real research. 

It doesn't seem to...............?

Quote:The experience of life is not a biology text book.

-and?

La vida sigue igual. That's a way to see things.

Sure does, just not for the guy on the slab, eh, lol.