(October 7, 2016 at 1:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 12:55 pm)Jesster Wrote: Okay. So back to my original point then. Should these pros and cons be in the hands of the parents? Other parents could see these pros and cons about the appendix differently than you. Would you judge them for weighing the pros and cons differently and removing their child's appendix?

No, I would not judge.

So you'd be okay with that happening? Okay then. That answers all I needed to know.

(October 7, 2016 at 12:57 pm)Aegon Wrote: This is my biggest disagreement with the anti-circumcision crowd. I just don't see the big deal about it. I know some users will say, "It's a chunk of your junk, how do you not care!?" but I really don't. Last time I had this argument I was told that circumcision is a child abuse, and parents who do it to their poor defenseless babies should have their child taken away. Because I'm clearly so traumatized by this thing that I have absolutely no memory of that a majority of American males had done to them too...

I won't even get into the medical benefits because it became clear to me last time I debated this that, while there are benefits to it, they're not very big ones.

There are medical benefits to having a clean dick...but we're not talking about clean dicks, we're talking circumcision.  Now, I can understand that you don't care..but why would you, you don't have foreskin, you have no point of comparison or consideration.  You've always been the way you are, in your memory, cut.  If someone told someone else to cut off a piece of my dick....and they actually tried it...I'd shoot them both without a qualm in the world.  I wouldn't serve a day in jail for it either, particularly if I were a child...because all of a sudden the reality of the situation becomes apparent...a reality which you, as an outsider with no possible point of comparison, cannot comprehend and thus do not care about.  

You don't know how you'd feel about it, had your mother decided to hold the scalpel.  I have -some- idea as to how a person in that scenario might feel.  This isn't a failing in you, it's not something that I think speaks to something about you in the negative, it's just the reality of -why- you don't care...and why that seems to be, in your estimation, a worthwhile and meaningful response to the anti-circumcision crowd.

As to trauma and memory, many children do not remembver being abused..in fact..that;s a common response to abuse. Is that an excuse for abusing them..does that get the abuser off the hook? "Well, they don't remember it, so, we cool?" No, ofc not.

(October 7, 2016 at 1:01 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 1:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, I would not judge.

So you'd be okay with that happening? Okay then. That answers all I needed to know.

I never said I'd be "ok" with it. I still wouldn't think it was right. But I wouldn't judge the parents as bad parents or horrible people for it if they had their own honest reasons and did what they truly thought was best for their child. Maybe their family has a history of illnesses regarding that part of the body or something, I dunno. I wouldn't judge them, is all I said.

A circumcision is generally irreversible or close to that at this point in our scientific advancement. That is why it should be illegal. Parents should have far less control over the lives of their children than they currently do. Most of all in certain areas, but in this one as well. No irreversible change should be made to a child's body without their own consent. Yes, I believe they should be old enough to be asked about it and that opinion should be the deciding factor in such a case. If we're talking about parents knowing better than their children, then that is simply patently false. They generally do not. We're chasing some sort of illusion pretending like they do. They're as clueless as their children. The reason why is quite simple. Since they're allowed to do both to their children, that is, either leave the circumcised or circumcise them, then apparently neither is inherently good or bad enough to be prohibited or protected by the law. Since that is the case, I don't see the problem with asking the kid's opinion on it once he's old enough to understand what he's being asked - And I don't believe that to be a rigid age, btw, like 18, and that's far too old as well; the whole age of adulthood idea is stupid, IMO, at least when it comes to non-sexual matters, for sure.

So, to recap, as soon as your kid is old enough to grasp the situation, and that can differ, I imagine, from something like 10 years old and older or maybe even younger in some cases, if the parents want to do some irreversible operation on them, the kid should be asked and presented with both pros and cons and advocates from both sides of the matter. And they should have the final say.

So there you go. If you disagree with that, you must think that in some cases circumcision is good and in others bad, and the parents are the experts on which those are, which is just patently ridiculous and I'll laugh in your f face.

(October 7, 2016 at 1:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 1:01 pm)Jesster Wrote: So you'd be okay with that happening? Okay then. That answers all I needed to know.

I never said I'd be "ok" with it. I still wouldn't think it was right. But I wouldn't judge the parents as bad parents or horrible people for it if they had their own honest reasons and did what they truly thought was best for their child. Maybe their family has a history of illnesses regarding that part of the body or something, I dunno. I wouldn't judge them, is all I said.

Okay, I will rephrase my question then. Should it be legal for parents to choose to remove their healthy infant's appendix?

(October 7, 2016 at 1:07 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 1:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I never said I'd be "ok" with it. I still wouldn't think it was right. But I wouldn't judge the parents as bad parents or horrible people for it if they had their own honest reasons and did what they truly thought was best for their child. Maybe their family has a history of illnesses regarding that part of the body or something, I dunno. I wouldn't judge them, is all I said.

Okay, I will rephrase my question then. Should it be legal for parents to choose to remove their healthy infant's appendix?

I don't know anything about it to say. I don't even know if it is or is not legal. But if it was legal, and if it was something that was medically practiced as circumcision is, and parents chose to do it for the reason that they thought it'd be best for their child, I wouldn't judge them as bad parents or horrible people for it.

Though I still feel like we're comparing apples to oranges here. At least to me, there's a difference between major surgery and cutting off a couple centimeters of skin. Obviously a line is drawn somewhere between what is and is not reasonable, otherwise everything can become a slippery slope.

Removing a clitoris isn't major surgery either.  Just a little bundle of skin and nerve...smaller, even, than foreskin. Slippery slopes indeed. If it were legal, and medically practiced....if it had wide cultural and religious acceptance...would you object to a parent having that done?

Why, or why not?

(October 7, 2016 at 1:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 1:07 pm)Jesster Wrote: Okay, I will rephrase my question then. Should it be legal for parents to choose to remove their healthy infant's appendix?

I don't know anything about it to say. I don't even know if it is or is not legal. But if it was legal, and if it was something that was medically practiced as circumcision is, and parents chose to do it for the reason that they thought it'd be best for their child, I wouldn't judge them as bad parents or horrible people for it.

Though I still feel like we're comparing apples to oranges here. At least to me, there's a difference between major surgery and cutting off a couple centimeters of skin. Obviously a line is drawn somewhere between what is and is not reasonable, otherwise everything can become a slippery slope.

Should it be legal, though, in your opinion?

This isn't apples and oranges. This is the same level of choice attributed to the same people. Both parts of the body in question are arguably as important.

(October 7, 2016 at 1:15 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 1:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't know anything about it to say. I don't even know if it is or is not legal. But if it was legal, and if it was something that was medically practiced as circumcision is, and parents chose to do it for the reason that they thought it'd be best for their child, I wouldn't judge them as bad parents or horrible people for it.

Though I still feel like we're comparing apples to oranges here. At least to me, there's a difference between major surgery and cutting off a couple centimeters of skin. Obviously a line is drawn somewhere between what is and is not reasonable, otherwise everything can become a slippery slope.

Should it be legal, though, in your opinion?

This isn't apples and oranges. This is the same level of choice attributed to the same people. Both parts of the body in question are arguably as important.

I already answered:

(October 7, 2016 at 1:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't know anything about it to say.

If every guy was the same, there'd be a loss of that element of surprise and anticipation as I am unzipping the portal.


I'm thinking diminishing the fun to even that degree is kinda mean.