(October 7, 2016 at 4:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 4:31 pm)RobertE Wrote: Ok then, enlighten me as to why you think it is important since there is absolutely NO medical evidence to the contrary that states that having a "cut", penis is more beneficial than an uncut one? 

1. Cut more hygienic than uncut, disproved. 
2. Men are happier in their lives uncut, proved.
3. Children carry emotional and physical scars into adulthood if they have been cut, proved.
4. If circumcision needs to be done because of fear of getting a sexual disease, then this is disproved as the overal muslim and jewish populations are expanding and are more likely to die because of poverty and their surroundings.

If you want to believe that I hold the opinion that I do in regards to circumcision (that it's the parent's decision, and neither option is wrong) because I'm Catholic, go ahead I suppose. I'm not sure why a couple of you seem to want so badly to believe that that is the case. My entire, devoutly Catholic family is uncircumcised. And all the majorly Catholic countries in the world do not have a custom for circumcising at all. But if you want to continue to tell yourself for whatever reason (of which I'll never understand), that my opinion on this is out of religious motivation, you will continue to do so no matter what I say. So, knock yourself out.

I did apologise in my last post. However, what you have just posted is unintelligible nonsense which doesn't answer my question. Either way, you came out with a lame excuse about hygiene. Tell you what, I'll just cut off my fingers, my toes, my ears, my nose and I'll get the nurses to sew up my anal tract because these are places which are just as unhygienic when it comes to dirt, sweat, wax etc. Hygiene doesn't cut the mustard for me.

(October 7, 2016 at 4:35 pm)Whateverist Wrote: On the other hand, at least some pro circumcision people deserve civility and respect.  Namely those who can disagree civilly over abortion when they feel something like the same regard for unborn babes-to-be as we do toward our wieners.  Looking at you Cath-y.  She doesn't like our sucking unborn kids from wombs and running them through the disposal but she doesn't froth at the mouth and scream incoherent shit at pro-choicers.  Time for uncut wiener advocates to suck it up and show they can comport themselves as well as she does.

This^ 

Though I must say I'm impressed at how much more civil this thread has been than the one I started.

(October 7, 2016 at 4:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote: @RobE - in regards to the chapter and verse above.

- thus the notably divergent rite of passage.  Part of the contract to be included in "the people".  At least they knew what their reasons were, and the nature of those reasons, when they did it to their offspring.  

We've got people today thinking that they do it to keep their kids from getting an std, which it doesn't..... or because uncut peen is dirty, which it isn't.  It;s like they can;t even believe the actual story of how all this dick cutting got started?  Why is that, does it just sound ludicrous?  Well..agreed..it -is- ludicrous.

@Cath
I don't think that you hold the opinion that you do -because- you're catholic, I think that catholicism provides cultural cover for an irrational and cruel position, just as it has always done, demonstrably, in this specific instance.  Not just for you., for us.  That's -how- it played into us to become an american tradition.  We did it to stop people from being sinful, to combat the filth..which you today conceive of as material dirtiness despite there being none.

I agree, when I read the passage, it had nothing to do with hygiene, unless God was actually a real human being and was actually concerned about his own personal hygiene that he decided to instruct others to do as he does. Either way, why a Christian does it, I have no idea, and again, the hygiene response is just a cop out. There has to be some sort of religious motivation.

(October 7, 2016 at 4:48 pm)Aroura Wrote: interestingly, circumcise in the west us where I'm from is less than half. So maybe my resistance to it is locally cultural. Plus that ASAP does not recommend it unless there is medical need, which is very rare. I will trust the American Academy of Pediatrics.

We discussed it when I was pregnant,  in case we had a boy, but ours turned out a girl, so I didn't have to have that fight with my husband. Ironically, he agrees it is wrong to pierce a baby girls ears, we never subjected our daughter to that. Even braces only when medically necessary, not for looks. She can make appearance choices for herself when she is older.

I'm with the American Academy of Pediatrics on that one as well.

(October 7, 2016 at 4:48 pm)RobertE Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 4:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If you want to believe that I hold the opinion that I do in regards to circumcision (that it's the parent's decision, and neither option is wrong) because I'm Catholic, go ahead I suppose. I'm not sure why a couple of you seem to want so badly to believe that that is the case. My entire, devoutly Catholic family is uncircumcised. And all the majorly Catholic countries in the world do not have a custom for circumcising at all. But if you want to continue to tell yourself for whatever reason (of which I'll never understand), that my opinion on this is out of religious motivation, you will continue to do so no matter what I say. So, knock yourself out.

I did apologise in my last post. However, what you have just posted is unintelligible nonsense which doesn't answer my question. Either way, you came out with a lame excuse about hygiene. Tell you what, I'll just cut off my fingers, my toes, my ears, my nose and I'll get the nurses to sew up my anal tract because these are places which are just as unhygienic when it comes to dirt, sweat, wax etc. Hygiene doesn't cut the mustard for me.

This is turning into a circular discussion. I've already posted the pros of circumcision. And I get it... you don't think they are good enough. That's fine. I respect your decision. If you choose not to circ your kid, that's 100% fine with me. Some parents, however, do think they are good enough reasons. And that's fine too. 

Also, I think it'll be a waste of time to address how cutting off your fingers, toes, nose, etc etc is completely different than cutting off a few centimeters of skin.

Furthermore, when Stephen Fry brought up the moment where he went to Uganda, and found that it was one of the worse African countries for AIDS where millions died. Guess what, most of the men, if not all, take part in a tradition which dates back to the 1800s where they get circumcised. Food for thought i.e. cut men are less-prone to STDs.

(October 7, 2016 at 4:48 pm)Aroura Wrote: interestingly, circumcise in the west us where I'm from is less than half. So maybe my resistance to it is locally cultural. Plus that ASAP does not recommend it unless there is medical need, which is very rare. I will trust the American Academy of Pediatrics.

We discussed it when I was pregnant,  in case we had a boy, but ours turned out a girl, so I didn't have to have that fight with my husband. Ironically, he agrees it is wrong to pierce a baby girls ears, we never subjected our daughter to that. Even braces only when medically necessary, not for looks. She can make appearance choices for herself when she is older.

I'm grateful they didn't feel they needed to ask whether you wanted to leave her devil's doorbell intact.

(October 7, 2016 at 4:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 4:35 pm)Whateverist Wrote: On the other hand, at least some pro circumcision people deserve civility and respect.  Namely those who can disagree civilly over abortion when they feel something like the same regard for unborn babes-to-be as we do toward our wieners.  Looking at you Cath-y.  She doesn't like our sucking unborn kids from wombs and running them through the disposal but she doesn't froth at the mouth and scream incoherent shit at pro-choicers.  Time for uncut wiener advocates to suck it up and show they can comport themselves as well as she does.

This^ 

Though I must say I'm impressed at how much more civil this thread has been than the one I started.

-but does she, or you, "froth at the mouth and scream incoherent shit at pro fgm'ers" at the thought of clitoral removal?  See, no one wants to touch this one.....

Same reasons offered, from the same traditions, same needlessness, same lack of any roundly demonstrable benefit - both genital mutilation done..by adults, to infants.....but one is a no go, and the other we don't give a shit about. Or, in fact, find ourselves arguing -for-.

(October 7, 2016 at 5:01 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 4:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This^ 

Though I must say I'm impressed at how much more civil this thread has been than the one I started.

-but does she, or you, froth at the mouth at the thought of clitoral removal?  See, no one wants to touch this one.....

I also don't think there's a need to talk about the obvious differences between removing the clitoris vs removing foreskin.

(October 7, 2016 at 4:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(October 7, 2016 at 4:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Ignorant statement. Circumcision has nothing to do with Catholicism.

Sure it doesn't.

I mean, it's not like catholics saw masturbation as filthy- just as imam who-gives-a-fuck sees a clit as filthy, it's not like they believe in a magic book that tells them to snip their sons.  Who do you think the nutballs that got americans to do this were appealing to?  Why did it catch on?  Medical studies about non-existent health benefits, you reckon....?



That circumcision as we practice it finds both it's genesis and it's support in the abrahamic religious traditions is flatly inarguable, Lady.  Just another thing we have jesus to thank for.  By we, ofc, I don't mean me.....I'm intact.  I mean all the poor schmucks whose mothers cut their sons for christ without realizing it.

Also funny that the believers of a god that made us perfect, by catholic standards, guiding evolution and giving free will, would accept that we made decisions for them.

This is where they start to contradict themselves. They believe a god, their holy father son and ghost gave free will, yet they have learned none from those teachings and make decisions for others. How ironic can it get?

I have a 2 month baby daughter. This obviously wont apply to her and anyone that will try to pierce, tattoo, corcuncuse or what the fuck they think of in name of vanity, culture religion, will have to walk over my warm dead body.

There is no fucking point in comparing with vaccines. Those are fucking proved to help in health, nothing to do with aestethics, personal tastes. I might become a bad dad, but she will have time to have all the piercings, tatoos, baptisms and whatnot by her own volition. That is what its meant to be.