(June 6, 2011 at 1:35 am)Girlysprite Wrote: diffidus: Rational thinking also stopped slavery of black people. It stopped women from being treated like shit. It stopped diseases, is stopping cancer now, makes sure that most kids survive (unlike less then half from the past). Blaming rational thinking for all these bad things is like blaming all these things on the fact that we breathe. You're now just twisting your own thoughts and making excuses to make rational thinking look bad. That sort of self dillusion is just inexcusable.

The guillotine was not the epitome of enlightment. Even very bad things happened in that time, they created the foundations of democracy as it exsists today. Sometimes good ideas can be horribly mangled and be poorly executed, but the idea is still good.
If the communists and Hitler had spent some MORE time thinking rational, these things might not have happened.

Bad people have always been good at dilluding themselves with whatever excuses. You think that your modern examples are the only ones? Religious people have been dilluding themselves with the bible, telling that they were right and put women on bonfires, tortured others for not looking up when the wafer was presented and led holy wars. Is that really any better?

So it seems it is not rationality to blame, but more the human nature to find an excuse for whatever they want to do deep at heart.

And yeah, that is what many humans are still doing this day.

Sadly, it is a misconception to think that evolution would make us nicer. No, it does not. We did get social skills to be nice to our group, but not all humans belong to our group. Every person that wants to start a war, makes a good effort to clearly define the enemies, tell how terrible they are and dehuminize them. We like to see ourselves as good people, so anyone who is 'that evil' isn't fully human, right?

slavery: black people aren't people but animals.
Burning witches: Witches have sold their soul to the devil and are enemies to good Christians.
Hitler: Jews are untermenchen, aka, not real people.
Communism: Kapitalists are beasts, stealing the clothes from the back of the poor and ripping the food from their mouths. They wear the skins of poor farmer children.

Diffidus:

I was not trying to blame all the worlds evils on rational thinking but rather showing that it is not necessarily a reliable source for good moral behavior. Some of your examples are not clear e.g. William Wilberforce, largely credited with abolishing slavery throughout the British Empire was an Evangelical Christian and Abraham Lincoln was an avid reader of the Bible and often quoted it. Similary, the famous suffragette Emily Davison was described as a militant Christian feminist.

It seems that both good and bad things are practised by religious people and atheists alike.

There is no monopoly on morality via rational thinking, since each person thinks their particular predicates are the right ones. Even in your post I can detect an element of contradiction:

'......tell how terrible they are and dehuminize them'.

'....so anyone who is 'that evil' isn't fully human, right?'

These lines are not my opinion. However, Such lines of ´reasoning´ are often the base of wars and actions that kill many people. When you look at war rethoric throughout the ages, you´ll find that some elements are stunningly common.

The inherent problem with moral behavior, reason, etc, is that humans act very much on instincts, whether they are religious or not. Worse yet, few people really know to what extend instinct governs our lives. Free will is smaller then we thought. Just a small and non/moral example: When you let people choose between getting a 100 dollars now, or 110 dollars next week, most people will choose the 100 dollars now. Why? There is no logical reason for it, but people do it nonetheless. Even up to the highest regions (banks) you'll find that behavior and attitude towards money. Not always because people are evil/greedy, but our deepest instinct tells us that it's better to have something today then bet for tomorrow. T
here has been a great amount of research that shows that behavior often depends on looks of others, smells, positioning of objects, the way they have been raised, where they live...
We have to accept this. We have known little of what drives us and why. But reason does help in here: it has been pointing out inherent systems andparts of instincts which drive our behavior and makes us make non-logical descisions. Armed with this knowledge, people can try to skate around these instincts, and wonder why they REALLY do what they do, without coming up with an excuse.

Very good point Girly

(June 7, 2011 at 1:40 am)Girlysprite Wrote: These lines are not my opinion. However, Such lines of ´reasoning´ are often the base of wars and actions that kill many people. When you look at war rethoric throughout the ages, you´ll find that some elements are stunningly common.

The inherent problem with moral behavior, reason, etc, is that humans act very much on instincts, whether they are religious or not. Worse yet, few people really know to what extend instinct governs our lives. Free will is smaller then we thought. Just a small and non/moral example: When you let people choose between getting a 100 dollars now, or 110 dollars next week, most people will choose the 100 dollars now. Why? There is no logical reason for it, but people do it nonetheless. Even up to the highest regions (banks) you'll find that behavior and attitude towards money. Not always because people are evil/greedy, but our deepest instinct tells us that it's better to have something today then bet for tomorrow. T
here has been a great amount of research that shows that behavior often depends on looks of others, smells, positioning of objects, the way they have been raised, where they live...
We have to accept this. We have known little of what drives us and why. But reason does help in here: it has been pointing out inherent systems andparts of instincts which drive our behavior and makes us make non-logical descisions. Armed with this knowledge, people can try to skate around these instincts, and wonder why they REALLY do what they do, without coming up with an excuse.

Diffidus:

I think there is a good deal of truth in what you say here. I think, however, particularly nowdays, in the world of high politics, wars are raged on a more rational basis. It is well to remember that the conclusion of any rational argument only depends upon the premises.

At the political level, religion plays a much reduced role among the world superpowers. Instead we are heading back to history as usual with wars being based upon a Malthusian dash for the ever dwindling earths resources.

Quote:wars are raged on a more rational basis.

Really? You mean like Iraq having weapons of mass destruction?


Wars are waged for the same reason as they've always been waged: Because the powers-that-be need to distract the populace from the fucking they are getting at the hands of those same powers.

To answer title, we behave like ...... Wait for it...... PRIMATES!!

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ten to them. great britain ad france sold temote='Minimalist' pid='143789' dateline='1307557253']

Quote:wars are raged on a more rational basis.

Really? You mean like Iraq having weapons of mass destruction?


Wars are waged for the same reason as they've always been waged: Because the powers-that-be need to distract the populace from the fucking they are getting at the hands of those same powers.
[/quote]


The truth is minimalist.... We know they had wmd's. Because the usa, France and great Britain sold them too them.

"I am saying that if you do not believe in God, then almost anything (within the law) goes due to the fleeting nature of this vacation from eternity."


Nothing wrong with that. It is why we invented laws: They are not manipulable like gods. Ain't progress great?

Wars have always been waged for the power of the rulers at the time. The excuses just have become different.

(June 8, 2011 at 3:02 pm)Epimethean Wrote: "I am saying that if you do not believe in God, then almost anything (within the law) goes due to the fleeting nature of this vacation from eternity."


Nothing wrong with that. It is why we invented laws: They are not manipulable like gods. Ain't progress great?

Diffidus:

Unfortunately, laws are extremely malleable. They are always changing and being manipulated for certain political ideological ends. Laws can also be changed abrubtly such that, if there were a clash of ideals in a country, and the establishment of the day thought it was getting out of hand, Martial Law could be declared and you may find yourself being shot down in the street by your own government. Laws are useful, but I don't think they provide a firm moral basis as to how we should behave.

War is great population control... let's have all of your countries war with each other right... NOW