What do theists mean when they say god is perfect? I may be wrong but I doubt very seriously that any two of 7 billion people will have exactly the same concept of what constitutes perfection. At this point the theist will say that it’s not about what people think perfection is but what god thinks perfection is. So god set the standard for perfection and then declared himself to be such?

Okay let’s look at the attributes of god and see if there is even one theist here who will dare to declare that this is his idea of perfection.

1. He is jealous
2. Although he is omnipotent, he has a lot of things he can’t do, e.g., he can’t forgive sin without violent bloodshed.
3. He refuses to take responsibility for his actions or for the things he allows others to do. Did he not praise Job for not blaming god for his troubles? And do not Christians excuse god by claiming he only allowed Satan to hurt Job?
4. He doesn’t keep his promises. Joshua 17:18, “But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down: and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.” But in Judges 1:19, “And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.”
5. He punishes minor offences with draconian ruthlessness, 2 Samuel 6: 1-7 god kills Uzzah for trying to save the arc of the covenant, Numbers 15: 32:36, god orders the death of a man who was picking up sticks on the sabbath.; but forgives major transgressions. King David sets Bathsheba’s husband up to be killed to cover her untimely pregnancy, but god gives him a chance to repent, which he did not give to Uzzah.
6. He commands people to do things he considers sinful then punishes them for doing what he told them to do. 2 Samuel 24: 1 where god tells king David to hold the census
7. He punishes the innocent. God killed 70,000 men (this figure may not even include the women and children) because of Kind David’s census.
8. He deceives people, 2 Thessalonians 2:11, “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.” Oh but theists will say he did this for a reason. These people deserved to be deceived and lied to. In other words there’s no absolute moral standard for deception and lying. It’s all relative.

Now since 7 is the number of perfection, we’ll stop here.

I hear drippy and GC complaining that all my examples involve human standards of perfection and what is good for humans instead of seeing things through the eyes of god. Yes, that’s true. You would have me believe that god created me with my own eyes, the ability to feel pain and sorrow, then put me in a world where pain and sorrow are the only way for me to grow as he wants me to grow.

But why insist on ascribing a human words like perfection on god if I’m not to define perfection in human terms? I’m a human and the word has no meaning outside human terms.

Quote:I hear drippy and GC complaining that all my examples involve human standards of perfection and what is good for humans instead of seeing things through the eyes of god.

Wait.  I thought the big book of bullshit said that we were created in god's image?  Calling all apologists!  Two of your brethren are drowning in a sea of their own bullshit.

It's like simplicity. It's just an arbitrary slider bar that theists have arbitrarily decided goes all the way to eleven.

(December 30, 2016 at 1:27 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: It's like simplicity.  It's just an arbitrary slider bar that theists have arbitrarily decided goes all the way to eleven.

Yes, they all say god is perfect, then they each apply their own personal definition of perfect and to them that becomes god. Brilliant.

What they can't seem to grasp is that in order for a Being to be perfect (if the word is to have any meaning at all), that Being must have the maximum possible measure of all attributes. It isn't enough for God to be perfectly merciful and just, he must also be perfectly murderous and capricious.

Tied up with the idea of perfection is the notion of completeness. If God lacks anything, then God by definition cannot be perfect. Thus, God must know what if feels like for God to commit a thoroughly evil act. Moreover, God must have the experience of the act. If not, then God is not complete and so, not perfect. On the other hand, if God commits an evil act, then God cannot be perfectly good.

['Oh, dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. - Douglas Adams]

Boru

Rhondavous: Thanks for mentioning Job. It is my favorite book in the bible. Like God is Satan's drinking buddy and they go out on a bad bender fucking with people. Then god reprimands Job for being such a schmuck. Poor Job needed an Adult Children of Alcoholics 12 Step Program.

The idea of perfection is odd. It's claimed Adam and Eve started out perfect, so apparently  doesn't mean never making mistakes. So how can we say that god is never wrong? Why would a perfect being create anything, since wanting things implies lacking something? And apparently he can't create something exactly like himself, so they'd never be good enough to satisfy him.

(December 30, 2016 at 7:31 pm)Chad32 Wrote: The idea of perfection is odd. It's claimed Adam and Eve started out perfect, so apparently  doesn't mean never making mistakes. So how can we say that god is never wrong? Why would a perfect being create anything, since wanting things implies lacking something? And apparently he can't create something exactly like himself, so they'd never be good enough to satisfy him.

Interesting comment unfortunately you miss some points.

1) The story of Adam and Eve has been manipulated by priests in order to create a sense of guilt in those who wouldn't listen to them.
Nothing really to do with God.
God never told the caste of the priests to become intermediaries between him and the masses.

2) Let us not forget that the bible was written ages and ages ago.
We do not know who did it and those teachings were aimed at people with a different kind of understanding from us.

3) Most probably the story of Adam and Eve refer to the use and misuse of the powers that people achieve after they climb up the ladder of high consciousness.
These powers shouldn't be use for our own benefits and that is when these guys pick up the apple
and use them but again this is only my understanding.

4) Why God create something if he is perfect?
Why would YOU give birth to kids?
Don't they give you extra satisfaction?
So why God wouldn't do the same?
Someone can be perfect and at the same time he-she can feel alone.
You never thought of that Chad, did you?  

5) Actually there are two things that God can not do.
One is that he can not hate anyone the second is that he can not create an other God.
Does this means that he is not perfect?  

(December 31, 2016 at 9:13 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(December 30, 2016 at 7:31 pm)Chad32 Wrote: The idea of perfection is odd. It's claimed Adam and Eve started out perfect, so apparently  doesn't mean never making mistakes. So how can we say that god is never wrong? Why would a perfect being create anything, since wanting things implies lacking something? And apparently he can't create something exactly like himself, so they'd never be good enough to satisfy him.

Interesting comment unfortunately you miss some points.

1) The story of Adam and Eve has been manipulated by priests in order to create a sense of guilt in those who wouldn't listen to them.
Nothing really to do with God.
God never told the caste of the priests to become intermediaries between him and the masses.

2) Let us not forget that the bible was written ages and ages ago.
We do not know who did it and those teachings were aimed at people with a different kind of understanding from us.

3) Most probably the story of Adam and Eve refer to the use and misuse of the powers that people achieve after they climb up the ladder of high consciousness.
These powers shouldn't be use for our own benefits and that is when these guys pick up the apple
and use them but again this is only my understanding.

4) Why God create something if he is perfect?
Why would YOU give birth to kids?
Don't they give you extra satisfaction?
So why God wouldn't do the same?
Someone can be perfect and at the same time he-she can feel alone.
You never thought of that Chad, did you?  

5) Actually there are two things that God can not do.
One is that he can not hate anyone the second is that he can not create an other God.
Does this means that he is not perfect?  

That's certainly one way of looking at the adam and eve story. and yes, the stories were written a long time ago, and it's hard to know what we're supposed to interpret from it. Hence why it really isn't an effective source of truth.

I would want to have a child, because I am lacking in something. Because I am incomplete without social interaction. a perfect being wouldn't need that.

He cannot create another god, and he can't be satisfied with someone who isn't perfect like him. so you'd think he'd abstain from creating anyone.

They will come up with all sorts of excuses to call their claimed god "perfect".

But in the context of human history, there is a very real root to this idea and unfortunately Plato was the one to popularize that concept with his idea of "essence". His very fucked up theory was that if you simply thought about something you could come up with the "essence" of that thing. Like "essence of rabbit" or anything. Dawkins goes into much better detail as to why Plato really screwed up human thought by coming up with that concept in the opening of his book "The Greatest Show on Earth".

That idea of "essence" went on to infect politics and religion which is to me the root of utopia thought which is poison to humanity. It teaches us to chase unrealistic goals.

The truth is for our species, is there is no such thing as anything "perfect" outside our own perceptions and ideas and opinions. Reality is very messy.