(March 30, 2017 at 10:17 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 29, 2017 at 10:49 am)wallym Wrote: But the value of you riding your bike to school is based on your goals.  Because you want to get to school and exercise, biking has value to you.  But to me, I have no goals associated with you.  So it doesn't matter to me if you get to school or get exercise.  So your biking to school has no value to me.

If the goals are not universal, then the value the actions have in helping achieve the goal is also not universal.

If Hitler wants to get to school on time as well, and their is only one bike that he shares with you, you will both have opposing goals, and consequently, the value of an action will be opposite.  If you ride to school, your actions has value to your goal, but has negative value towards Hitler's goal.  And the same the other way around.  If Hitler gets the bike, it hurts your ability to achieve your goal, so has negative value to you.  

Just like Hitler committing genocide and trying to conquer Europe were actions with positive value in achieving his goals, yet, for most, the actions had negative value.  The negative value just happened to be a vast majority, and people just rounded up to everyone, and pretend it's universal.  But there've been enough people committing genocide and trying to conquer the world in history, that I think it's pretty clear it's far from a universally held idea.

If you want to have a universal values, you need a universal goal.  You can make one up, I suppose.  But I'm not sure how you convince others that your 'universal goal' is not just something you made up.  If I were trying to do it, I'd probably try to create an authority figure.  Possibly some God type, and say they have a bunch of universal goals, and that'd probably be pretty effective.

Actions that are relative to us or a few around us, have an effect on others who aren't not necessarily connected to us. We are all interlinked.

I don't think the value of an action to be objective has to be universal in the sense everyone must assign the same value to an action. It just requires an objective perception to that value.

Biking could be really good thing for me to do and that really is valuable for me to do for myself. However Hitler might thinking what he did was good for himself and others, doesn't make it so simply because he assigns that value.

So we can estimate value to actions, but our estimate is not what assigns the value. Rather we estimate based on some sort of scent to value and understanding of goals, purpose, and value, which relates to our language of love which gives us some sort far-sighted sense of objective worth and purpose.

God fits perfectly and nothing else fits perfectly for that perception that sees our actions exactly as they are or our value or states.

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To have a value that is shared and thus can have an objective perception that applies to all, you need a universal perspective.  But true value to an individual comes from their personal perspective.  I think their brain, specifically.

The problem with Hitler, is that many of his actions likely were good for himself and others.  Obviously, he made some tactical blunders along the way.  But the reason we have laws, is because many criminal actions benefit the criminals, so there has to be a way to lower the value of the action from their perspective.

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(March 29, 2017 at 6:03 pm)Orochi Wrote:

(March 29, 2017 at 11:41 am)wallym Wrote: As for the other stuff, I've never felt patronized or insulted in any of my dealings with MK.  Perhaps experiences in your theistic backgrounds/or past experiences with theists have made a lot of you super duper sensitive?  That would also explain why every time he posts, a bunch of people seem to trip over eachother rushing to make some shitpost.  "TRY TO TELL ME GOD IS REAL!! GET THE FUCK OUT MOM!!!  umm... I MEAN MK!"  Which is fine, I guess.  We all have our shit.  But I'm not the person to complain about it too, because from where I'm sitting, it looks a lot more like stuff being projected onto MK than anything he's doing.

Nope had a good religious background so your full of shit declaring this is some emotional anti religious projection  . Kindly take your amateur psychoanalysis and keep it to yourself.

I said 'perhaps' and 'a bunch of people.'  You read that as a declaration, and responded as though I targeted it at you and only you.

I wonder what a professional psychoanalyst would have to say about that.

Quote:To have a value that is shared and thus can have an objective perception that applies to all, you need a universal perspective.  But true value to an individual comes from their personal perspective.  I think their brain, specifically.

I thought about this for a few days. It may be true we need a universal perspective for it to be objective, I am not sure about this. However, then you say a true value from their personal perspective which seems like a contradiction. A brain is not a universal perspective.
Do you mean the value they believe themselves come from their brains? Because their true value and their objective value mean the same thing.

(April 2, 2017 at 12:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

Quote:To have a value that is shared and thus can have an objective perception that applies to all, you need a universal perspective.  But true value to an individual comes from their personal perspective.  I think their brain, specifically.

I thought about this for a few days. It may be true we need a universal perspective for it to be objective, I am not sure about this. However, then you say a true value from their personal perspective which seems like a contradiction. A brain is not a universal perspective.
Do you mean the value they believe themselves come from their brains? Because their true value and their objective value mean the same thing.

That was some sloppy wording by me with personal perspective.  I'm not talking about the individuals opinion.  I'm talking about them being the reference point.

Using your earlier example:
If I said "How big?"  I'd expect the response of "How big what?"

But if I said "How big is the moon?"  That's a question with a real answer.

The same goes for value.

"How valuable is a bike?" (to who or what?) vs.  "How valuable is a bike to MK."  

You can guess at it, like you can guess at the size of the moon.  You know it gives you exercise, and gets you to school, and maybe riding it causes you some happiness.  

Objectively, though, with complete information I suspect there is a very real measure of the happiness it causes.  A real measure of the health impact.  A measure of it's utility to you.  

The point being, that with complete information, I think it could objectively quantified how much positive and negative impact individual actions have in fulfilling the goals of a person.  Although, it's important to note, I don't think the person is fully aware of their goals, either, which is why I brought up the brain.  I believe our brain runs the little voice we identify as ourselves, rather than the voice running the brain.  Which is why, as you've said, a person can genuinely think they are doing what's  best for themselves, and be wrong about it.

(March 29, 2017 at 10:49 am)wallym Wrote: Just like Hitler committing genocide and trying to conquer Europe were actions with positive value in achieving his goals, yet, for most, the actions had negative value.  The negative value just happened to be a vast majority, and people just rounded up to everyone, and pretend it's universal.  But there've been enough people committing genocide and trying to conquer the world in history, that I think it's pretty clear it's far from a universally held idea.

Nice work trying to equivocate for Hitler, nazi.

(April 3, 2017 at 8:38 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(March 29, 2017 at 10:49 am)wallym Wrote: Just like Hitler committing genocide and trying to conquer Europe were actions with positive value in achieving his goals, yet, for most, the actions had negative value.  The negative value just happened to be a vast majority, and people just rounded up to everyone, and pretend it's universal.  But there've been enough people committing genocide and trying to conquer the world in history, that I think it's pretty clear it's far from a universally held idea.

Nice work trying to equivocate for Hitler, nazi.

I'm sure Hitler would have been happy to equivocate for himself, if you jerks didn't bully him into suicide.

(April 3, 2017 at 9:33 am)wallym Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 8:38 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Nice work trying to equivocate for Hitler, nazi.

I'm sure Hitler would have been happy to equivocate for himself, if you jerks didn't bully him into suicide.

Awww poor little snowflake racist is mad because I said bad things about his favourite bum buddy. Bless.

(April 3, 2017 at 3:55 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 9:33 am)wallym Wrote: I'm sure Hitler would have been happy to equivocate for himself, if you jerks didn't bully him into suicide.

Awww poor little snowflake racist is mad because I said bad things about his favourite bum buddy. Bless.

Oh snap, you were seriously criticizing me with the first comment?  I thought you were just joking.  Rereading it with this newfound context may be even funnier, because it's so goofy I assumed it was satirical.  Good times!  If he were still alive, I'm sure Hitler would have enjoyed this.  While you people are always obsessing about him being a genocidal maniac, us closest to him knew of his fondness for crazy mix 'em ups.

we as individuals have no value that being said that is the truth it's sad but its true
but we assign values to ourselves and others because were human. Even if a god existed or even gods exist
what value did they give our lives because from what i seen there is no good argument there to made.

(April 3, 2017 at 4:24 pm)wallym Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 3:55 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: Awww poor little snowflake racist is mad because I said bad things about his favourite bum buddy. Bless.

Oh snap, you were seriously criticizing me with the first comment?  I thought you were just joking.  Rereading it with this newfound context may be even funnier, because it's so goofy I assumed it was satirical.  Good times!  If he were still alive, I'm sure Hitler would have enjoyed this.  While you people are always obsessing about him being a genocidal maniac, us closest to him knew of his fondness for crazy mix 'em ups.

Good, good. Feel the impotent rage, the nonsensical ravings against your intellectual and moral supreiors. Well on the gibbering loon path of the Force you are.