If it took god any amount of time to do things, let alone the six days in the claim, then he isn't beyond or outside time.

(April 18, 2017 at 2:35 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: If it took god any amount of time to do things, let alone the six days in the claim, then he isn't beyond or outside time.

Still does not matter, 

Take "God/god/s/supernatural" by any name in time or outside or both at the same time, still explains nothing. 

Supernatural Allah did it, certainly he would be beyond nature and interacting with nature.
Supernatural Yahweh did it, certainly he would also be beyond nature and interacting with nature.
Supernatural "Nervana" and "reincarnation would also be beyond nature and interacting with nature.
Supernatural Thor would also be beyond nature but still interacting with Thunder and Lightening".

My supernatural invisible pink unicorn is beyond nature but also interacts with nature.

Then there is the real natural answer, humans make up these claims because it its merely a reflection of their own desire to have control over resources and live forever.

This is why scientific method is not a religion and will not point to any club or god claim. You still get stuck with "which one" and infinite regress. 

Cognition is not a starting point, but a temporary outcome, a blip. Just like clouds are temporary and produce everything from rain to sleet to hail to snow and can form hurricanes and tornados. Humans simply want a "forever" and there is no such thing, even single atoms have a shelf life.

god cannot exist out of space time because if he wanted into interact or even kick start the expansion he/she/it couldn't be out the outside
since there was no outside of the tiny spec that was our universe. To say there was nothing outside is to say there was something because even
in a empty vacuum stuff does happen there is no true empty space. So given that in the confines of the universe god would have had to been inside said tiny spec
when it eventually expanded. But even still outside out of the universe there is no outside to speak out unless there is *multiverse then even still one cannot make
that argument.

(April 18, 2017 at 3:27 pm)dyresand Wrote: god cannot exist out of space time because if he wanted into interact or even kick start the  expansion he/she/it couldn't be out the outside
since there was no outside of the tiny  spec that was our universe. To say there was nothing outside is to say there was something because even
in a empty vacuum stuff does happen  there is no true empty space. So given that in the confines of the universe god would have had to been inside said tiny spec
when it eventually expanded. But even still outside out of the universe there is no outside to speak out unless there is *multiverse then even still one cannot make
that argument.

The word "all" is the loophole theists use, of course it doesn't work, but that is the fantasy they create to justify anything. If you are "all powerful" you can be both inside and outside time at the same time. You have "all" the options.

But again, you are still stuck with "which one" and infinite regress. 

Even at simply a moral level, if God can do anything he wants, then he is certainly capable of lying. If he cant lie then he is not all powerful. If he can lie, then the follower wont be able to tell if they are being lied to. That puts the follower in the position of being manipulated, like a toy. 

So you are still stuck with "which one" on top of  if he is "all powerful" then he has to logically speaking also be capable of NOT GIVING A SHIT ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL. 

It makes much more sense to me that there is no such thing as a God or anything supernatural and the only thing we can aspire to as a species is caring about our fellow human during our finite ride now.

(April 18, 2017 at 3:55 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(April 18, 2017 at 3:27 pm)dyresand Wrote: god cannot exist out of space time because if he wanted into interact or even kick start the  expansion he/she/it couldn't be out the outside
since there was no outside of the tiny  spec that was our universe. To say there was nothing outside is to say there was something because even
in a empty vacuum stuff does happen  there is no true empty space. So given that in the confines of the universe god would have had to been inside said tiny spec
when it eventually expanded. But even still outside out of the universe there is no outside to speak out unless there is *multiverse then even still one cannot make
that argument.

The word "all" is the loophole theists use, of course it doesn't work, but that is the fantasy they create to justify anything. If you are "all powerful" you can be both inside and outside time at the same time. You have "all" the options.

But again, you are still stuck with "which one" and infinite regress. 

Even at simply a moral level, if God can do anything he wants, then he is certainly capable of lying. If he cant lie then he is not all powerful. If he can lie, then the follower wont be able to tell if they are being lied to. That puts the follower in the position of being manipulated, like a toy. 

So you are still stuck with "which one" on top of  if he is "all powerful" then he has to logically speaking also be capable of NOT GIVING A SHIT ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL. 

It makes much more sense to me that there is no such thing as a God or anything supernatural and the only thing we can aspire to as a species is caring about our fellow human during our finite ride now.

The thing with all powerful is a contradiction  i  mean a all powerful being cannot be all good either. 
this is the problem with the trinity in the end you can be all anything.

(April 18, 2017 at 3:57 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(April 18, 2017 at 3:55 pm)Brian37 Wrote: The word "all" is the loophole theists use, of course it doesn't work, but that is the fantasy they create to justify anything. If you are "all powerful" you can be both inside and outside time at the same time. You have "all" the options.

But again, you are still stuck with "which one" and infinite regress. 

Even at simply a moral level, if God can do anything he wants, then he is certainly capable of lying. If he cant lie then he is not all powerful. If he can lie, then the follower wont be able to tell if they are being lied to. That puts the follower in the position of being manipulated, like a toy. 

So you are still stuck with "which one" on top of  if he is "all powerful" then he has to logically speaking also be capable of NOT GIVING A SHIT ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL. 

It makes much more sense to me that there is no such thing as a God or anything supernatural and the only thing we can aspire to as a species is caring about our fellow human during our finite ride now.

The thing with all powerful is a contradiction  i  mean a all powerful being cannot be all good either. 
this is the problem with the trinity in the end you can be all anything.

Right!

Because it is a reflection of human behaviors not a real god. Humans in reality are not all good or all bad, some are good, but not perfect even if they are not violent most of their lives. Others don't give a fuck, be they murderers or greedy, and nobody would or should argue any value in those individuals. 

Once you accept the reality that both the desirable and that which is harmful and you don't desire are part of a natural process, the superstition fades away. 

It is why I can accept a religious person with a god belief as being good, as an individual, but know they are completely full of shit that there is an invisible force or god dictating their actions as an individual. Believer or not, even with atheists, it still amounts to you are a non violent individual or you are not. The individual to me determines how I respond, even with atheists.

(April 17, 2017 at 12:35 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Greetings, AF-ers!

So.  I played the Easter Vigil Mass at a Catholic Church on Saturday evening.  I was sitting beside a friend who is in the medical profession - very intelligent, very scientifically-oriented. Her understanding of evolutionary biology is much stronger than mine.  At the Vigil, they read the "Creation story", the "Exodus", and a whole bunch of other evil bullshit. So, at one point, I just said - "So, the creation story is a complete myth, right?" -- expecting her to agree.  She didn't.  Her response is "No, not exactly.  It's just not couched in scientific terms, because it was written down by people who didn't have that knowledge.  But I believe that it is accurate at it's core, because GOD exists OUTSIDE OF TIME." Well.  It wasn't a good time for a debate.  This debate may never come up, really.  Her Father is not well - she's stressed.

But I know that I have read good responses to that "beyond time" fallacy.  I just can't find them at the moment.  I did a search for a thread here, (I'm pretty sure SOMEBODY brought it up!) -- haven't found that yet either. It boggles the mind, because as far as we can tell, nothing in this universe is "beyond time".  And she certainly has no evidence for her assertion.  

But if anyone has a really good explanation for why this is a fallacy, an illogical dodge - - or can point me to a good source - - I need to study!  Thanks team!

-- Fuzz

If god is outside of time, god is outside the universe. If god is outside the universe, then god cannot influence events within the universe (essentially, god doesn't exist). Therefore if you want the christian god, you need a god which exists within our own spacetime framework. QED.

God is outside time and also space. Take the String Theory: God must be outside of these time/space-segments that make up the components of what we call string; or bubble of existence.

I never read the creation story with full details in Christianity; but the argument is still there: "talk to people with their language if you wanted them to understand.."

(April 18, 2017 at 4:46 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: God is outside time and also space. Take the String Theory: God must be outside of these time/space-segments that make up the components of what we call string; or bubble of existence.

I never read the creation story with full details in Christianity; but the argument is still there: "talk to people with their language if you wanted them to understand.."

Name me one peer reviewed String Theory that points to Allah or Yahweh or Jesus or Buddha or Yahweh or Thor or Yoda.

It cant be that humans simply make up God/gods/super natural? Let me guess all scientific arguments point to your pet claim right? Well, get in line, take a number.

Ridiculous.

Those who believe God exists outside of space and time are saying He exists nowhere and at no time. 

The Wholly Babble makes it clear the Lord walked, talked, played hide-and-seek, wrestled with Jacob, gave a speech to the entire nation of Judea and showed off his impressive cock to Ezekiel. 

The Lord is apparently hot and hung.