Quote:I don't believe that they would allow me to DENY THE evidence quite so easily.  I've tried before with  my denial of the undeniable FACT of evolution. which unlike my make believe is 100% based on actual evidence. Not theological masturbation .

Fixed it

So I was wrong, he's not just trying to put testimony on an equal footing with real evidence, he's trying to PISS on real evidence so it has to take a backseat to testimony. What an asshole.

(September 5, 2017 at 6:31 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I'm perfectly capable of believing that the 3 billion or so Christians throughout history were ALL deluded, ALL misinterpreting their experiences, and that NONE could have got direct corroboration of observations that I would value enough to decide to accept the God idea in general, or the Christian Jesus-as-God idea in specific.

I'm also quite capable of believing this.  I sincerely believe that they were all deluded, just passing the same unsubstantiated claims down the line from generation to generation (and occasionally disagreeing enough with one another to splinter into rival sects).

3 billion people can indeed be wrong.  High numbers of adherents do not obviate the need to support each and every extraordinary claim individually, and accept or reject each one on its own merits.  Therein lies the danger of being a scriptural literalist:  It only takes one debunked claim to taint the whole package.

(September 5, 2017 at 1:11 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(September 5, 2017 at 12:12 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: No, the bible  is more like, "here's thist totally rue story my great-grand-uncle wrote that his grandfather's drinking buddy told him down the pub one night, which he heard off some protesting stiludents who were told it by a guy selling sausages inna bun, who saw it after mastering the mystical wisdoms of Mrs Marietta Cosmopolite, and it's totally true".

Ah a subtle Pratchett reference slid gently into the thread. Me likee

Oh, I forgot to mention that sausage inna bun guy was cutting his own throat at those prices.

Woof bloody woof.

My point proven!

(September 6, 2017 at 1:14 am)Astreja Wrote:

(September 5, 2017 at 6:31 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I'm perfectly capable of believing that the 3 billion or so Christians throughout history were ALL deluded, ALL misinterpreting their experiences, and that NONE could have got direct corroboration of observations that I would value enough to decide to accept the God idea in general, or the Christian Jesus-as-God idea in specific.

I'm also quite capable of believing this.  I sincerely believe that they were all deluded, just passing the same unsubstantiated claims down the line from generation to generation (and occasionally disagreeing enough with one another to splinter into rival sects).

Well yeah that was before the "scientific method" was invented. In the past people only valued what was written in the old books and the older the better. First person that seemed to brake this mold was actually Leonardo da Vinci. Back in early 15 century people "rediscovered" books by Roman architect Vitruvius called "De architectura" where, among other things, was described proportions of man. Many artists tried drawing what Vitruvius described and failed until Leonardo read it and understood it well.

After he drew what is now known as Vitruvian Man Leonardo also wanted to draw human anatomy as it looks inside. So his mentality then was to look into old books describing human anatomy and he came to books by famed and ancient Greek physician Galen. When Leonardo tried to draw disposition of human organs inside the body he concluded that Galen is nothing more then a quack who didn't know anything about human body, so Leonardo made a revolutionary decision to dissect human beings and draw what's inside them. That of course resulted in breathtaking drawings of human insides which changed the medicine and science in general. After him came of course Galileo who started measuring and observing world around him even more and that's why he got into trouble. Back in those days you looked ridiculous if you got your knowledge by "just" observing world around you instead of looking into books that were at least thousand years old.

(September 5, 2017 at 6:31 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 5, 2017 at 2:44 pm)alpha male Wrote: Of course testimony, as defined in the OP, is evidence. It isn't conclusive evidence. There are many factors we use to assess the strength of testimony as evidence. But to say it isn't evidence at all is ridiculous. Most of what we think we know we learned through testimony.

I think, as often happens in these threads, that we're down to semantics.  What you are talking about is the communication of ideas.  Technically, you guys (by which I mean the Christians arguing in favor of testimony as evidence) are right: almost everything we "know" is testimony-- a scientific journal with all its data is in some sense just some guy saying he saw some stuff, took some measurements, and got particular results.

Yep.

Quote:I think almost everyone here would take a collection of scientific papers as evidence.  In fact, if I were trying to prove a scientific point, I'd like half a dozen papers and just link them here, especially where I wouldn't have the resources to perform certain experiments on my own.  So if papers are testimony, then I'm relying almost exclusively on testimony.

Yep. Then, depending on the findings, you might need to assess further. For instance, back in the day, there were scientists who said smoking was harmful, and those who said it was safe. Those who said it was safe were generally paid by tobacco companies. People tend to discount such studies because there's obviously a financial incentive involved.

Quote:Nevertheless, I'd say that for most of us, there's a belief that testimony is shorthand.  I believe that I at least COULD corroborate almost all science with my own direct observations.  I could study enough about electronics and physics to make my own detectors.  I could go get degrees in math and physics.  I could worm my way into scientific communities such that I might have access to things like the LHC, or at least ask for guest status.

Yes, you believe you could, and there's nothing wrong with that. The error is in trying to claim that testimony becomes something more than testimony because you believe you COULD verify it yourself.

What you should be saying is that, as I said above, there are many factors we can use to evaluate testimonial evidence, and other evidence for that matter. In this case, if the findings are not controversial, several people testify to having found the same thing, and there's no apparent incentive for any of them to lie about it, it's strong evidence, albeit still testimonial from your own point of view.

Quote:With religious testimonial, things are different.  I do not expect God to speak to me in the form of a burning bush, no matter what I do-- I can only, ever, take somebody's word for it that 1) that happened; and 2) the person isn't misinterpreting a different experience (lysergic mold on his rye bread causing him to hallucinate, light or chemical effects which being uneducated he might not understand, etc.)

Yes, most people would agree that testimonial evidence for supernatural claims is weaker than that for mundane claims. But, instead of recognizing degrees of strength, you're pushing a false dichotomy.

Quote:So yeah, testimony can be evidence, depending on your semantics for those words.

I'm using the OP definition - the transfer of knowledge from one person to another with the assertion that this information is true (this may be written or spoken).

Quote:But in terms of being evidence with the power to persuade, it's of pretty poor quality.

As most people who have existed have been theists based largely on testimonial evidence, I have to disagree. It can be very persuasive.

Quote:I'm perfectly capable of believing that the 3 billion or so Christians throughout history were ALL deluded, ALL misinterpreting their experiences, and that NONE could have got direct corroboration of observations that I would value enough to decide to accept the God idea in general, or the Christian Jesus-as-God idea in specific.  And that's just if I'm going Jesus-vs-not-Jesus.  What if I take the "testimony" of a billion hindus and as many muslims?

You can personally weight testimony of the miraculous that low if you like. The problem is when you argue that you are necessarily right, and so other people with different weighting are therefore wrong. 

Quote:The latter, in science, would be the nail in the coffin-- it would be obvious that scientific conclusions would be invalidated by so much contrary evidence.  And so is the Christian position-- just the fact that there are so many religious views which contradict Christianity is a sufficient challenge to demonstrate that testimonial evidence alone cannot be considered sufficient (or even, in my opinion, of any value at all).

First, you have the false dichotomy, i.e. you assume that all religious testimony is equal. I disagree. For instance, I see different possible motivations between Paul and Mohammed and weight Mohammed's testimony lower, as I would weight testimony on the safety of cigarettes from a scientist employed by a tobacco company lower.

Second, the fact that people believe indicates that the evidence is sufficient to them. Again, it may be of no value in your opinion - so what? You're entitled to that opinion, but it doesn't make it right.

Quote:In short, there are two views we can take, neither of which helps us with the God idea:
1)  Testimony is NOT taken as evidence.  Christians, having no other kind of evidence, therefore have no basis on which to base their beliefs (or to transmit them)
2)  Testimony IS taken as evidence.  The Christian narrative, being in conflict with billions of other people's "evidence," has in this sense as much evidence against it as for it, and the Christian case simply isn't compelling enough for anyone to bother with it.

Again, false dichotomy. There is a third option - we each weight testimonial evidence according to multiple factors and find some weaker, some stronger.

(September 6, 2017 at 10:54 am)alpha male Wrote:

Quote:In short, there are two views we can take, neither of which helps us with the God idea:
1)  Testimony is NOT taken as evidence.  Christians, having no other kind of evidence, therefore have no basis on which to base their beliefs (or to transmit them)
2)  Testimony IS taken as evidence.  The Christian narrative, being in conflict with billions of other people's "evidence," has in this sense as much evidence against it as for it, and the Christian case simply isn't compelling enough for anyone to bother with it.

Again, false dichotomy. There is a third option - we each weight testimonial evidence according to multiple factors and find some weaker, some stronger.

No, I don't think so. I believe it is your bias that makes you think your religious testimonial is more valid or valuable than the religious testimonials of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and so on. I'm pretty sure that a devout Hindu will value his own texts, history, word-of-mouth, and personal experiences as more valid and valuable than yours. His respected community members will confirm his beliefs. His excited temple members will talk of visions or of powerful feelings. Whatever you say, he will mirror in kind. He will be certain that his testimonial represents truth, whereas yours represents a misunderstanding of truth.

Since there is no physical evidence, then you will have to establish to my satisfaction not only that testimonial might be useful in establishing the truth of religious claims. You'll have to demonstrate that one faith's testimonial evidence due to "multiple factors" is in fact weaker or stronger.

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(September 6, 2017 at 10:54 am)alpha male Wrote: As most people who have existed have been theists based largely on testimonial evidence, I have to disagree. It can be very persuasive.

Since the particular God ideas that all these people have held have been so varied, there are three ways of looking at this state:
1) There's some underlying, non-mythological real God, humans sometimes have contact with this God, and the different religions are the struggle of minds in describing the indescribable.
2) There's something about people that leads us to anthropomorphize that which is mysterious, so we have a genetic predisposition to put a human-like face to inhuman things.
3) There really is a God, but we have no contact with such-- our God ideas are as (2) above: an artifact of the human brain's predispositions toward seeing things a certain way.

I believe these three options cover all the bases. Note that none of these options allows you to put forward the Jesus man-as-God idea as viable if you consider the testimonials of non-Christian theists as credible.

Quote:There is a third option - we each weight testimonial evidence according to multiple factors and find some weaker, some stronger.

What factors might those be?