It all seems rather silly to me. It's like arguing over whether or not the One Ring may have survived the magma.

1. I don't know any scared Christians.
2. It's a very old idea.

Mark 9:43-45

King James Version (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:


Hell would have to be eternal, wouldn't it? So as to illicit eternal faithfulness from the believer who fears it, should they transgress and be found unworthy of Heaven. (Which they already are because their name is not amid the 144,000 in the Book of Life. Of course, Christians are competing with JW's amid that number.)

Hell is the promise of infinite suffering for the transgressed, the unrepentant sinner, who does not relinquish their sinful nature, born from their being created imperfect in the image and likeness of perfection. (makes sense, right?) After having committed finite errors as god's imperfection in the flesh.

Thus, when god in Jesus garb came to earth with the help of a "sinless" woman, (We're imperfect but god couldn't manifest himself save through the traditional birth canal, yet had to arrive via the one woman that was not only without sin from birth, how's that accomplished exactly, but was a perpetual virgin. Meaning no matter how many non-angel sperm implanted boys she gave birth to post JC, her cherry kept growing back.Yeahhh! Perpetual...virgin) and suffered and died on a Roman capital punishment device, meant for the lowest form of criminal so as to send a message as he hung there that this is love!
This is how god changes his mind about condemning humanity infinitely, for finite errors in their flawed god created human nature. He suffers and dies as a symbol of love, and thereby takes away the worlds sins.
No conditions to that. No, I take away the worlds sins contingent upon these terms and conditions.... Those came later. At first, it was simply god came to die as Jesus to take away the worlds sins!
Later, the scriptures, (thank you Paul), declare the conditions. That as long as someone believes this happened. That god Jesus died to cleanse the world of it's sins, then they are saved from sin.
Which means they can no longer sin. (Well, that's how it's suppose to work, but up is down down is up and 2+2 = 5. It's a mystery, it's part of god's plan, he's god and he can do the math any way he likes because he's the creator of the numbers, the sums and the calculations.)

Now, this should all mean, if we take the first myth that god died to take away the worlds sins, that Hell disappeared. No sins, no reason to go to Hell, right? Well no! Of course not!
Because of all those souls, like Moses, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Isaiah, and King David, and all the OT Patriarchs need a place to keep roasting, because prior to god taking away the worlds sins as part of his new covenant, or testament, all those servants of god died unrepentant as natural born sinners.
So hell is eternal.
And it has to be so as to scare people who first accept the whole god, Jesus, sin, Heaven, Hell fable, to accept the tenets of the cult faith and abide by all it's rules, else that horrific burning pit awaits.

Which is why the cross, a symbol of terrorism in ancient Rome, the capital punishment device reserved for the lowest criminal element, stands as a symbol of the faith. Because visually, it is suppose to stimulate believers into remembering, no matter how bad their life gets, no matter how much they're suffering worldly travails, that god/Jesus suffered worse, to make a better place for them if they just hold the faith, when they're dead and all that suffering presently plaguing their lives is over. Meanwhile, prayer saves. Hope soothes and faith it's all true, dumbs down the majority of the world into accepting the mediocre as god's will. The poverty, as part of god's plan. No matter how many prayers ascend to Heaven, that poverty, despair, starvation, homelessness, infirmity, disease, pandemic AIDS, be gone, be alleviated, that the sufferers be saved from that suffering, that when it does not abate, it's part of god's will and no matter what those who suffer now will be rejoicing after the life that endured so much pain.

Or, not!
Because unrepentant, they'll suffer worse in eternal Hell.

Talk about incentive to hold faith in what saves from eternal flames and unquenchable thirst. Especially if while alive one is impoverished with very little to drink!
Isaiah 33:14

King James Version (KJV)
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Of course, it's all bullshit.
However, there are people who need to feel worthless for being who they are, so as to strive to be worth something more in the eyes of their creator when they're dead, so as to have a goal for living day to day.
Those people are called Christians. But first, god called them sheep. That choice sacrificial animal offered up to him, because as he proved in the Cain and Able myth, the scent of roasting meat and blood is pleasing to the senses of the lord. That must be why god dwells in Hell. (Psalm 135:7-8) The aromatics. Mmmm, mmmm, tasty!

I love god! He created me to be his BBQ.

(August 14, 2011 at 3:21 am)Minimalist Wrote:


I love it when xtians fight among themselves over whose pile of trash smells better.

Let's hope those who really care kill each other over it.

Wouldn't be the first time.

And it's not like they're not making a concerted effort to achieve that result. Unfortunately, innocent people are slaughtered in the process.

Quote:(at least I know a lot of priests have).

Self-preservation, Orog. Otherwise a lot of the child-raping fuckers would end up there.

I can't find any way around the need for hell to be real. Otherwise what are we being saved from? What sort of savior is necessary with no cosmic persecutor?

(August 14, 2011 at 5:01 am)fr0d0 Wrote: As Rob Bell said there's nothing new about the idea. It dates back at least 1500 years?? (don't quote me on that). After accusing him of lack of reference he does back himself up quite well in the book. I liked the ideas and it made a lot of sense to me. I've never had any doubt that heaven and hell start here. That stands pretty well independently from this.

Oh yeah, it's a very strong argument. I'm going to try to read the counter-arguments this week, but they have a lot of ground to cover.

(August 14, 2011 at 8:33 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Well the 'no eternal hell' argument does sound less harmfull.
However it is just as wrong as the hell is eternal argument.

As far as I can tell they are argueing over the reality of a fictional construct.
A bit like star trek fans coming to blows over how the warp drive works.

Haha! I loved the warp drive comment! Yeah, I totally see that for atheist it would be like a fight over who's imaginary friend would win in a fight, but I appreciate you commenting on the idea itself. I wrote this thread knowing there would be some totally righteous burns along these lines. Thanks for your input.

(August 14, 2011 at 10:30 am)Rhythm Wrote: LOL< the love wins guy sounds like one of my daughters, what an optimist. If I had to meet my "dark side" I wouldn't be walking away from that encounter. This doesn't surprise anyone does it? Christianity will have to change with it's constituents or die. Any religion that has staying power has done this, eventually becoming understood as a pretty story.

I definitely agree with you about changing and dying. I think that Christianity is in the process of changing and dying just because of the nature of any group. The group changes when there are suddenly different people in it (or not in it), because the group is very much defined by the people in it. Of course just becoming a pretty story is not very good for a religion because then they are just a book of stories, no one really follows it (as we can see by the current weekly attendance at Zeus's temple). Our current set of Christian denominations may very well die off, but I see the Church moving forward into the future.

As for the dark side thing, yeah, "wouldn't walk away" is a pretty good summary. That's why I appreciate the strong imagery related to hell. Dark side is no fun.

As for optimists, the world needs them. People stupid enough to believe that things can really be better, people like Gandhi and Dr. King. No one ever thought that the south would be a place where African Americans and white people could truly call each other friends.

Has it become such a place? Fuck man I was there not 12 months ago, what happened? All the palefaces die of west nile?