In a million years, nothing I have done or will do will matter to anyone anymore. And it doesn't matter now that nothing I have done or will do won't matter in a million years.

(December 15, 2017 at 6:49 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: You're right in that the life in you is not a trick but it, also not magic. It is simply biologic life. When the biology stops so shall you. And me, and everyone. 

Life can also be love, grace, fairness, reward and justice. However those attributes do not require a fantasy god. 

Your "Source" is your delusion. That is the trick.

Well, even if we count the wonderful graces in life, according to the god of fertilizer, they will amount to nothing in the end, so where do you find reward or justice in that?

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(December 15, 2017 at 6:55 pm)Cyberman Wrote:

(December 15, 2017 at 6:24 pm)Starhunter Wrote: Isn't science trying to emulate that biological machination?

Sorry, I don't chase red herrings. Please acknowledge my question. And look up "machinations".

My mistake.

---

(December 15, 2017 at 6:54 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Yep, that is it. The sun was around before humans, didn't give a shit about us back then, and it has no capability of giving a shit about us after it explodes and our solar system dies. 

Unfortunately you see that as fatalistic instead of simply valuing the ride while it exists and look for real answers to extend the ride.

I find NOTHING fatalistic about reality, even though it does have bad things in it. I do see a superstitious species that will cling to the past more often than not when it also has the capability of curiosity and logic and reason. Humans perceptions are notoriously flawed, but we are ALSO capable of questioning too.

It doesn't matter how much you extend the ride of life, when it ends, it's over and it's pointless. Unless you imagine that someone will remember you and be pleased. Well the historical facts are that eventually no one remembers the people of the past.

(December 15, 2017 at 6:33 pm)Starhunter Wrote:

(December 15, 2017 at 6:15 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Life is real, that is is the only thing we agree on. I simply do not assign all this to a sky hero. Just like you'd rightfully scoff at anyone claiming lightening is caused by Thor.

I am sorry someone sold you old mythology and told you that was the key to happiness and goodness now, but that is your baggage. Atheists can do good and be good without mythology. 

And as far as the false desire of eternity, that is not a real thing, that is simply your own evolutionary drive put in comic book mythology form before humans scientifically figured out what drives evolution and evolution itself. 

But, if you merely want to argue "Why wouldn't you want to be forever?"

We can dress that too.

If we can live forever as the claims of religions claim in the form an afterlife. THAT WOULD get boring after a while. But worse than getting boring, is the idea especially with the authoritarian claims of the God of Abraham, if I couldn't feel my own emotions in heaven, and all I felt was joy, then basically my own autonomy is taken from me and my only purpose is to suck one guy's ego. 

But, don't feel bad, the Asian concept of "reincarnation" is just as absurd. If you did bad in a prior life, you come back as a lesser life, if you do good in this life, you gain prosperity in the next. it is simply another superstitious version of a fictional "forever".

OK. But you are allowed to feel whatever you want in heaven. God's angels have disappointments and grief just like we do. Only a fool wears a permanent grin.

Oh bullshit. 

There is no heaven or hell, but if we are going to pretend for argument's sake, that STILL makes no sense.

If I am allowed to have my own feelings, then what sense would it make if heaven is supposed to be pure joy, to feel pain for those who are not dead, or suffering. Or, what if I suddenly think while there that God is a douchebage and don't want to hang out with him anymore? Do I still maintain my own freedom?

How about reality now?

Humans back then, even in POLYTHEISM, had no clue of the nature of reality, and humans lived under local ruling families. And humans simply mistook their local success as coming from a super natural place.

Maybe YOU need to consider, that "God" is really no different than "Ra" the Egyptian Sun God, or "Brahama" the Hindu creator God. 

FYI do you even know where the word "Yahweh" stems from, and no, the Jews did not invent it.

(December 15, 2017 at 7:20 pm)Starhunter Wrote:

(December 15, 2017 at 6:49 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: You're right in that the life in you is not a trick but it, also not magic. It is simply biologic life. When the biology stops so shall you. And me, and everyone. 

Life can also be love, grace, fairness, reward and justice. However those attributes do not require a fantasy god. 

Your "Source" is your delusion. That is the trick.

Well, even if we count the wonderful graces in life, according to the god of fertilizer, they will amount to nothing in the end, so where do you find reward or justice in that?

A better question is why do you think that you need/deserve a special reward or justice in the end? More than other humans? For me life is/was/will be reward enough. Any justice that I received I received from society, not from a man made fantasy delusion.

(December 15, 2017 at 7:33 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(December 15, 2017 at 7:20 pm)Starhunter Wrote: Well, even if we count the wonderful graces in life, according to the god of fertilizer, they will amount to nothing in the end, so where do you find reward or justice in that?

A better question is why do you think that you need/deserve a special reward or justice in the end? More than other humans? For me life is/was/will be reward enough. Any justice that I received I received from society, not from a man made fantasy delusion.

I always get a chuckle from Christians with this.

"What do you mean there's no reward at the end? What the hell have I been doing all this time if I'm not going to be rewarded for it by some extrinsic super being?!"

(December 15, 2017 at 7:37 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(December 15, 2017 at 7:33 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: A better question is why do you think that you need/deserve a special reward or justice in the end? More than other humans? For me life is/was/will be reward enough. Any justice that I received I received from society, not from a man made fantasy delusion.

I always get a chuckle from Christians with this.

"What do you mean there's no reward at the end?  What the hell have I been doing all this time if I'm not going to be rewarded for it by some extrinsic super being?!"

They always seem to think they have some special superiority granted to them via ritual. Which then gives them the authority to discriminate.

(December 15, 2017 at 7:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(December 15, 2017 at 6:33 pm)Starhunter Wrote: OK. But you are allowed to feel whatever you want in heaven. God's angels have disappointments and grief just like we do. Only a fool wears a permanent grin.

Oh bullshit. 

There is no heaven or hell, but if we are going to pretend for argument's sake, that STILL makes no sense.

If I am allowed to have my own feelings, then what sense would it make if heaven is supposed to be pure joy, to feel pain for those who are not dead, or suffering. Or, what if I suddenly think while there that God is a douchebage and don't want to hang out with him anymore/

How about reality now?

Humans back then, even in POLYTHEISM, had no clue of the nature of reality, and humans lived under local ruling families. And humans simply mistook their local success as coming from a super natural place?

Maybe YOU need to consider, that "God" is really no different than "Ra" the Egyptian Sun God, or "Brahama" the Hindu creator God. 

FYI do you even know where the word "Yahweh" stems from, and no, the Jews did not invent it.

I've never met God, and I don't know whether I'll get along or not, knowing my present state of mind. It's up to him to make me feel appreciated and normal. But I have been so wrong about things before, so... maybe I am too pessimistic...I know one thing, I love some people, they are just so cool, and I have never been given reason to think any different about God. But the gods of religion are tardians to say the least !

Want to answer my question now?

(December 15, 2017 at 7:20 pm)Starhunter Wrote:

(December 15, 2017 at 6:49 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: You're right in that the life in you is not a trick but it, also not magic. It is simply biologic life. When the biology stops so shall you. And me, and everyone. 

Life can also be love, grace, fairness, reward and justice. However those attributes do not require a fantasy god. 

Your "Source" is your delusion. That is the trick.

Well, even if we count the wonderful graces in life, according to the god of fertilizer, they will amount to nothing in the end, so where do you find reward or justice in that?

---

(December 15, 2017 at 6:55 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Sorry, I don't chase red herrings. Please acknowledge my question. And look up "machinations".

My mistake.

---

(December 15, 2017 at 6:54 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Yep, that is it. The sun was around before humans, didn't give a shit about us back then, and it has no capability of giving a shit about us after it explodes and our solar system dies. 

Unfortunately you see that as fatalistic instead of simply valuing the ride while it exists and look for real answers to extend the ride.

I find NOTHING fatalistic about reality, even though it does have bad things in it. I do see a superstitious species that will cling to the past more often than not when it also has the capability of curiosity and logic and reason. Humans perceptions are notoriously flawed, but we are ALSO capable of questioning too.

It doesn't matter how much you extend the ride of life, when it ends, it's over and it's pointless. Unless you imagine that someone will remember you and be pleased. Well the historical facts are that eventually no one remembers the people of the past.

Will you please stop trying to justify your mythology by trying to half heartedly agree with me.

YES IT IS POINTLESS in cosmic time

Yes, when I am dead, those whom survive me will remember me. 

But IN COSMIC time, in terms of billions of years, sorry, if you want me to swallow your superstition I cant. 

Was Jefferson or Hitler or Martin Luther King around 4 billion years ago? No. Do people still remember Jefferson and Hitler and Martin Luther King now that they are dead? Certainly.

But no, in 5 billion years nobody good or bad will be remembered by the universe. 

Here is a POEM I wrote about this silly notion of immortality. 


The Illusion, By Brian37 

From the onset 
From the first breath 
The sickle chases us 
To a variety of death 

We fight in futility 
This final reality 
With vacuous labels 
Of class and status 

Since atoms decay 
To our dismay 
The futile efforts 
We display 

Our masks have names 
In race and religion 
Of power and wealth 
And national origin 

And in our history 
None have escaped 
The finite reality 
All will face 

The illusion enticing 
The peacock strut 
With fanciful feathers 
Attracting others 

Plumes of falsehood 
Empty promises 
And hollow threats 
Divide humanity 

Trapped we are 
By this illusion 
Painfully obvious 
Is our imagination 

A way out 
Will never be 
No mater what lie 
We believe 

From the fame 
To the farmer 
To the Pope 
To the president 

All who are ,all who were 
And all who will ever be 
Will be swallowed by time 
And obscurity 

The cosmos 
Is cold 
Uncaring 
And not cognitive 

Please spare me 
From your accusation 
Of negativity 
Born from credulity 

Nay be I fatalistic 
Or pessimistic 
Merely from facing 
Reality 

Are there wonders 
And happiness 
To be found 
Here and now? 

A resounding yes 
I too shout 
YES, YES YES 
I have no choice 

A kitten's purr 
A loved one's hug 
I value too 
Without myth making 

The illusion must die 
For the mind to survive 
The sickle the victor 
And will always win 

It reaps our bodies 
And our stories 
Laughing at petty attempts 
To outlast it's dark robe 

Facing the finite 
Is solitude 
Incantations 
Are pale placebos 

We dress 
Dress and redress 
Our flavors 
Hoping the ice cream wont melt 

It does 
It will 
It is 
Our finality
(end)

Don't feel bad Star, most humans buy some sort of "forever" and don't think we are being mean trying to state the reality there is no such thing.

If i'm an illusion and my thoughts and feelings are illusion . I'm still illusion with thoughts and feelings so why would i care either way . As for the sun outlasting yup it will and good thing too . As for not being remembered all the people i care about will likely remember so who else matters ?