Hi all.

I was a Pentecostal pastor in full time ministry for 25 years. Recently started "answering" many of the questions that have been with me for life (Became "Born Again" at age 8, baptised in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues at age 10, baptized in water by method of full immersion at age 11)...and, the answers led me to atheism.

I have a best friend who is a totally sold-out Pentecostal christian, and, he has been making stupid life decisions based on his faith in god. In the past, I did not say anything and did not challenge him on this, because I did not want to be labelled "the one who cursed his blessings because of the negative words I put out there". And, at that time, I honestly believed god would help them.

Now, after a journey to atheism, of between 2 years and 10 years, I am of the very strong opinion that the christian god, the god of the bible, does not exist. He and I have spoken about this, and he is still convinced that I am just going through a stage that god will bring me out of, and that it's fine to be where I am, as god will use it to my benefit.

He and I are able to chat very rationally about this stuff, in fact, we spent hours discussing it on a three-day drive cross country.

I VERY MUCH want to help him to stop making stupid decisions (based on faith), and I believe this is an ideal opportunity. To give you an idea of some decisions: he and his wife both left their jobs on a whim, believing god told them to enter into ministry. The result was they lost their house, their property, and lived in people's living-rooms for almost three years. Now they're renting. but the apartment is in a very bad state (no lights!! yes - no lights!!!), black mould etc etc etc...but this is precisely why they stay there: it's affordable. Yet, they want to leave there (because of the health hazards), and their solution is: tomorrow they start packing their stuff into boxes, they've told the landlord they're leaving this week. They have nowhere to go, and they do not have money to rent a place. Mark my words, they're going to live in their car. They believe god will provide.

Now, just to be very clear: we have helped them many, many, many times in the past. We've given them computers, given them appliances for their homes, had their cars fixed & serviced etc. Yet, a few years ago - when they explicitly said that god is providing for them (in a time when they were living in other people's living rooms), my wife and I made the decision not to support them financially again. We are concerned for our friends, and that's why we want to help them...BUT, we know for a fact that if we help them in any way, they will say god sent us, and give god the credit, and for this reason, we are not willing to help them. Sure, when we invite them over, we buy all the food. When we invite them to join us for an evening out, we pay for everything. This we do, as it is not a major thing...but, we do not wish to rent them a flat, or buy them groceries, as we know this will turn us into enablers...and we do NOT wish to enable them in their false belief.

Sorry about the long back-story.

Fact is, after our conversations, he has come up with three things that I cannot seem to find answers to. I'm convinced he is wrong, but I do not know how to answer:
1) God is so great, so amazing, so holy, that all the pain in the world (babies dying of cancer, entire civilizations wiped out by Israel, tsunamis killing thousands of people) is so minuscule in comparison to what he SHOULD be doing to us for being sinful, that my friend does not regard it as immoral/wrong/bad. He believes that god should actually just wipe us from the universe...BUT, god is being gracious, and only allowing some small pain.
2) He agrees that the bible may not be perfect, and that it is not the inerrant Word of God...but, he believes that the bible is a good guide, as the bible (for him) correlates to what he sees in the world today.
3) Even though he agrees that he has NO EVIDENCE for god, he holds to the fact that he just knows that he knows that he knows god is real and is part of his daily life.

I realize that if he does not want to be convinced, he may never be...BUT, I cannot simply (in good conscience), let him continue destroying his, his wife, and his son's lives with ridiculous "whim-like" decisions based on the faith that god will sort it all. I cannot stand idly by while this continues to happen to my best friend...and I honestly feel a very strong urge to chat with him more, and deconstruct his beliefs, at least to the point where he is able to make more reasonable and rational decisions.

Any advice on those three questions/answers?

(December 20, 2017 at 8:18 am)riaaneloff Wrote: Hi all.

I was a Pentecostal pastor in full time ministry for 25 years. Recently started "answering" many of the questions that have been with me for life (Became "Born Again" at age 8, baptised in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues at age 10, baptized in water by method of full immersion at age 11)...and, the answers led me to atheism.

I have a best friend who is a totally sold-out Pentecostal christian, and, he has been making stupid life decisions based on his faith in god. In the past, I did not say anything and did not challenge him on this, because I did not want to be labelled "the one who cursed his blessings because of the negative words I put out there". And, at that time, I honestly believed god would help them.

Now, after a journey to atheism, of between 2 years and 10 years, I am of the very strong opinion that the christian god, the god of the bible, does not exist. He and I have spoken about this, and he is still convinced that I am just going through a stage that god will bring me out of, and that it's fine to be where I am, as god will use it to my benefit.

He and I are able to chat very rationally about this stuff, in fact, we spent hours discussing it on a three-day drive cross country.

I VERY MUCH want to help him to stop making stupid decisions (based on faith), and I believe this is an ideal opportunity. To give you an idea of some decisions: he and his wife both left their jobs on a whim, believing god told them to enter into ministry. The result was they lost their house, their property, and lived in people's living-rooms for almost three years. Now they're renting. but the apartment is in a very bad state (no lights!! yes - no lights!!!), black mould etc etc etc...but this is precisely why they stay there: it's affordable. Yet, they want to leave there (because of the health hazards), and their solution is: tomorrow they start packing their stuff into boxes, they've told the landlord they're leaving this week. They have nowhere to go, and they do not have money to rent a place. Mark my words, they're going to live in their car. They believe god will provide.

Now, just to be very clear: we have helped them many, many, many times in the past. We've given them computers, given them appliances for their homes, had their cars fixed & serviced etc. Yet, a few years ago - when they explicitly said that god is providing for them (in a time when they were living in other people's living rooms), my wife and I made the decision not to support them financially again. We are concerned for our friends, and that's why we want to help them...BUT, we know for a fact that if we help them in any way, they will say god sent us, and give god the credit, and for this reason, we are not willing to help them. Sure, when we invite them over, we buy all the food. When we invite them to join us for an evening out, we pay for everything. This we do, as it is not a major thing...but, we do not wish to rent them a flat, or buy them groceries, as we know this will turn us into enablers...and we do NOT wish to enable them in their false belief.

Sorry about the long back-story.

Fact is, after our conversations, he has come up with three things that I cannot seem to find answers to. I'm convinced he is wrong, but I do not know how to answer:
1) God is so great, so amazing, so holy, that all the pain in the world (babies dying of cancer, entire civilizations wiped out by Israel, tsunamis killing thousands of people) is so minuscule in comparison to what he SHOULD be doing to us for being sinful, that my friend does not regard it as immoral/wrong/bad. He believes that god should actually just wipe us from the universe...BUT, god is being gracious, and only allowing some small pain.
2) He agrees that the bible may not be perfect, and that it is not the inerrant Word of God...but, he believes that the bible is a good guide, as the bible (for him) correlates to what he sees in the world today.
3) Even though he agrees that he has NO EVIDENCE for god, he holds to the fact that he just knows that he knows that he knows god is real and is part of his daily life.

I realize that if he does not want to be convinced, he may never be...BUT, I cannot simply (in good conscience), let him continue destroying his, his wife, and his son's lives with ridiculous "whim-like" decisions based on the faith that god will sort it all. I cannot stand idly by while this continues to happen to my best friend...and I honestly feel a very strong urge to chat with him more, and deconstruct his beliefs, at least to the point where he is able to make more reasonable and rational decisions.

Any advice on those three questions/answers?

Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, Buddha, Vishnu..............

Insert any of the gap answers above. 

Or, maybe our species behaviors, good and bad, are in our evolution, not old mythology. 

Maybe if humans want less bad shit happening, maybe we should study those bad things, and seek natural solutions to reduce human suffering instead of chalking that crap up to old myths.

(December 20, 2017 at 8:18 am)riaaneloff Wrote: Hi all.

I was a Pentecostal pastor in full time ministry for 25 years. Recently started "answering" many of the questions that have been with me for life (Became "Born Again" at age 8, baptised in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues at age 10, baptized in water by method of full immersion at age 11)...and, the answers led me to atheism.

I have a best friend who is a totally sold-out Pentecostal christian, and, he has been making stupid life decisions based on his faith in god. In the past, I did not say anything and did not challenge him on this, because I did not want to be labelled "the one who cursed his blessings because of the negative words I put out there". And, at that time, I honestly believed god would help them.

Now, after a journey to atheism, of between 2 years and 10 years, I am of the very strong opinion that the christian god, the god of the bible, does not exist. He and I have spoken about this, and he is still convinced that I am just going through a stage that god will bring me out of, and that it's fine to be where I am, as god will use it to my benefit.

He and I are able to chat very rationally about this stuff, in fact, we spent hours discussing it on a three-day drive cross country.

I VERY MUCH want to help him to stop making stupid decisions (based on faith), and I believe this is an ideal opportunity. To give you an idea of some decisions: he and his wife both left their jobs on a whim, believing god told them to enter into ministry. The result was they lost their house, their property, and lived in people's living-rooms for almost three years. Now they're renting. but the apartment is in a very bad state (no lights!! yes - no lights!!!), black mould etc etc etc...but this is precisely why they stay there: it's affordable. Yet, they want to leave there (because of the health hazards), and their solution is: tomorrow they start packing their stuff into boxes, they've told the landlord they're leaving this week. They have nowhere to go, and they do not have money to rent a place. Mark my words, they're going to live in their car. They believe god will provide.

Now, just to be very clear: we have helped them many, many, many times in the past. We've given them computers, given them appliances for their homes, had their cars fixed & serviced etc. Yet, a few years ago - when they explicitly said that god is providing for them (in a time when they were living in other people's living rooms), my wife and I made the decision not to support them financially again. We are concerned for our friends, and that's why we want to help them...BUT, we know for a fact that if we help them in any way, they will say god sent us, and give god the credit, and for this reason, we are not willing to help them. Sure, when we invite them over, we buy all the food. When we invite them to join us for an evening out, we pay for everything. This we do, as it is not a major thing...but, we do not wish to rent them a flat, or buy them groceries, as we know this will turn us into enablers...and we do NOT wish to enable them in their false belief.

Sorry about the long back-story.

Fact is, after our conversations, he has come up with three things that I cannot seem to find answers to. I'm convinced he is wrong, but I do not know how to answer:
1) God is so great, so amazing, so holy, that all the pain in the world (babies dying of cancer, entire civilizations wiped out by Israel, tsunamis killing thousands of people) is so minuscule in comparison to what he SHOULD be doing to us for being sinful, that my friend does not regard it as immoral/wrong/bad. He believes that god should actually just wipe us from the universe...BUT, god is being gracious, and only allowing some small pain.
2) He agrees that the bible may not be perfect, and that it is not the inerrant Word of God...but, he believes that the bible is a good guide, as the bible (for him) correlates to what he sees in the world today.
3) Even though he agrees that he has NO EVIDENCE for god, he holds to the fact that he just knows that he knows that he knows god is real and is part of his daily life.

I realize that if he does not want to be convinced, he may never be...BUT, I cannot simply (in good conscience), let him continue destroying his, his wife, and his son's lives with ridiculous "whim-like" decisions based on the faith that god will sort it all. I cannot stand idly by while this continues to happen to my best friend...and I honestly feel a very strong urge to chat with him more, and deconstruct his beliefs, at least to the point where he is able to make more reasonable and rational decisions.

Any advice on those three questions/answers?

Ignorance can be fixed by facts but you cant fix stupid.

I have friends and family that lived that way as they tried to succeed as artists. Jeweler, painter, musician. They eventually found a way to make it work. Maybe they will succeed as christian ministers and get rich. Maybe this is just their "poor, starving christian" phase. Someday they may look back on it fondly.

Hi and Welcome Woof to the forum.

Quick question: When you began speaking in tongues at such an early age did you know that you were pretending? Were you pretending?

You friend(s): As you said, you may not be able to convince them that they are being foolish. You can't change anyone unless they want to change themselves. (well, actually you can but it's an ugly process)

1) god is great but he allows his creations to suffer/die. That would only mean he is not great or does not care or there is no loving creator. Every time something bad happens to them I'd ask "Is this gods will?".
2) The bible could be made correlate to any time in existence. This time is not special. 
3) There may be no help with this one. "I just know" (with no evidence), that's a childs way of thinking.

You may have to cut this family off completely. That might be very hard.

The same first post was also made at The Thinking Atheist.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...pid1281876

Um........ do we have a POE and I got sucked in?

On 1) ask him why does he think his god to be the ultimate evil (he punishes us for being the way he made us)?
On 2) point out how inaccurate the bible is, ther's plenty of websites which discuss this . And if he is still denying, then ask him why most of genesis acknowledges yhwh as a single god in a pantheon.
On 3) there's none so blind as those unwilling to look.

Funny how gods go to great theological lengths to behave as if there is no god at all.

"I know that I know that I know that you don't know"

to the forums.