I have a question for Steve and Neo...

Would you guys say it's likely the case that Ghandi, for example, is in Hell because he was not Christian?

What about people who believe in the same God as us but are not Christian... like Muslims and Jews? And non protestant Christians like Mormons, Catholics, etc?

I'm curious if those people are the same, in your mind, as atheists in terms of the going to Hell belief.

(January 29, 2018 at 6:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I have a question for Steve and Neo...

Would you guys say it's likely the case that Ghandi, for example, is in Hell because he was not Christian?

What about people who believe in the same God as us but are not Christian... like Muslims and Jews? And non protestant Christians like Mormons, Catholics, etc?

I'm curious if those people are the same, in your mind, as atheists in terms of the going to Hell belief.

Hell is a theist parameter, not ours. Ghandi isn't anywhere now, outside the memories of the living who report his finite existence.

Atheists don't buy a cosmic Studio 54 after party heaven, nor do we buy a bad si fi B movie "hell" We don't buy either.

I find nothing wrong about my temporary blip. I was not around 4 billion years ago, and I won't exist 5 billion years from now.

It bothers theists of all labels yes. But it does not bother me. I do what I can now, in my finite time. I am not responsible for my fictional pre life, and I will not concern myself with what the universe will do without me in 5 billion years. What matters to me is now.

(January 29, 2018 at 5:25 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(January 29, 2018 at 4:53 pm)SteveII Wrote: Most don't realize the most significant difference between the two main branches of Christianity is that the Catholic Church follows the doctrine that the Catholic Church (via the Pope--the direct spiritual successor of the Apostle Peter) continues to be a conduit for new revelation from God that can add to the NT with the authority of Christ himself. The protestant branch believes that nothing should be added to the NT. Understanding this helps in understanding why there are added layers that Catholics believe.

I wouldn't say adding new revelation is really accurate. The Pope can confirm and validate new special revelations such as Marian visitations and saintly miracles but he cannot reverse previous doctrine. What he can do is clarify minor points within previously established doctrine, like the way Talmudic scholars argue over how many melons you can pick-up on the Sabbath before it's considered scattered fruit.

Well, how did we get doctrines such as purgatory, immaculate conception, the confessional and absolution of sin, last rites, prayer to saints, etc. if not through adding? These concepts are not in the NT. I am not catholic bashing--I am trying to explain why there is a difference.

Hell, heaven, purgatory, stop kidding yourselves.

(January 29, 2018 at 6:47 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Hell, heaven, purgatory, stop kidding yourselves.

I wish humans would. But even Hindus and Buddhists think reward punishment is an idea of multiple lives where if you do good in a prior life you get a better one in a future life, and if you do bad now, you get a crapper life in your next.

It bothers most humans the prospect of being a blip that didn't exist prior, nor will be remembered after.

The only real after life anyone has is living in the memories of those whom survive them. But even then, even with the most famous people, even that fame is fleeting and finite.

After our species goes extinct, our species will not be remembered. 5 billion years from now the most famous and the never known will be remembered the same.

(January 29, 2018 at 6:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I have a question for Steve and Neo...

Would you guys say it's likely the case that Ghandi, for example, is in Hell because he was not Christian?

What about people who believe in the same God as us but are not Christian... like Muslims and Jews? And non protestant Christians like Mormons, Catholics, etc?

I'm curious if those people are the same, in your mind, as atheists in terms of the going to Hell belief.

Ghandi suffered from the same malady the rest of humanity does. Any sin creates a gulf between us and God. That gulf must be bridged only with the redemption that Christ offers. It is a binary choice--with no gray area: either someone has accepted this free gift or one has not. If Ghandi did not, then he will not be in heaven. 

IMO, God judges people hearts according to the information they have and what they did with it. The Bible says that information about God is written on everyone's heart. I'm pretty sure this is the same basis that supports the Catholic doctrine of Invincible Ignorance.

Quote: "The truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God" (Romans 1:19-20, New Living Translation)

Now if they have heard the Gospel and still follow Islam or Joe Smith, then that is a clear indication of their rejection of Christ.

I think sincere Catholics recognize the basics needed for salvation (it's all there).

(January 29, 2018 at 6:33 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(January 29, 2018 at 5:25 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I wouldn't say adding new revelation is really accurate. The Pope can confirm and validate new special revelations such as Marian visitations and saintly miracles but he cannot reverse previous doctrine. What he can do is clarify minor points within previously established doctrine, like the way Talmudic scholars argue over how many melons you can pick-up on the Sabbath before it's considered scattered fruit.

Well, how did we get doctrines such as purgatory, immaculate conception, the confessional and absolution of sin, last rites, prayer to saints, etc. if not through adding? These concepts are not in the NT. I am not catholic bashing--I am trying to explain why there is a difference.

There are certain passages in the bible that allude to all those things in one way or another. That, coupled with reasoning and putting pieces together. For example, i think personally that purgatory just makes sense. I assume very few people die in a completely perfect state of grace. But there are passages that do allude to it, if you want to do a quick Google search. Same with the rest.

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(January 29, 2018 at 6:47 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Hell, heaven, purgatory, stop kidding yourselves.

Great addition to the discussion.... 🙄

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(January 29, 2018 at 6:54 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(January 29, 2018 at 6:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I have a question for Steve and Neo...

Would you guys say it's likely the case that Ghandi, for example, is in Hell because he was not Christian?

What about people who believe in the same God as us but are not Christian... like Muslims and Jews? And non protestant Christians like Mormons, Catholics, etc?

I'm curious if those people are the same, in your mind, as atheists in terms of the going to Hell belief.

Ghandi suffered from the same malady the rest of humanity does. Any sin creates a gulf between us and God. That gulf must be bridged only with the redemption that Christ offers. It is a binary choice--with no gray area: either someone has accepted this free gift or one has not. If Ghandi did not, then he will not be in heaven. 

IMO, God judges people hearts according to the information they have and what they did with it. The Bible says that information about God is written on everyone's heart. I'm pretty sure this is the same basis that supports the Catholic doctrine of Invincible Ignorance.

Quote: "The truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God" (Romans 1:19-20, New Living Translation)

Now if they have heard the Gospel and still follow Islam or Joe Smith, then that is a clear indication of their rejection of Christ.

I think sincere Catholics recognize the basics needed for salvation (it's all there).

So to clarify, everyone who does not die as a Christian is going to Hell, unless they have never heard of Jesus/gospels?

Do you think it is possible to do this after you die? Example: Ghandi died a Hindu because he sincerely believed it was the right religion. He dies, sees Jesus, and realizes he was wrong, and wants to be with Jesus. Is it too late? Is he really damned to Hell for an honest mistake?

(January 29, 2018 at 6:21 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 29, 2018 at 6:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I have a question for Steve and Neo...

Would you guys say it's likely the case that Ghandi, for example, is in Hell because he was not Christian?

What about people who believe in the same God as us but are not Christian... like Muslims and Jews? And non protestant Christians like Mormons, Catholics, etc?

I'm curious if those people are the same, in your mind, as atheists in terms of the going to Hell belief.

Hell is a theist parameter, not ours.

Correct, which is why her post was addressed to Neo and Steve, who are both theists, lol.

(Edited to add to my last post above)

Nothing wrong with discussing heaven hell and such as concepts but its just silly to treat them as anything beyond fiction. And Ghandi is bound to go to hell according to New Testament, so if the Catholic catechism says differently therein lies the problem. But again, lucky for him, hes not really going anywhere. Hes just dead. For good.