You won't be able to put it into words. But it really dosen't matter.

You could say the same thing about trying to prove the existence of dark matter/energy. It is a pointless exercise.

(May 13, 2009 at 9:24 am)g-mark Wrote: You could say the same thing about trying to prove the existence of dark matter/energy. It is a pointless exercise.

No, it's not. Dark matter is commonly known to be something that is possible exists. They are also trying to find evidence of it which, atleast what I've heared, shouldn't be impossible.

EvF has it wrong.

I don't admit there are no valid reasons to believe, I state there are.

I'm talking about those reasons all the time. That is my reasoning. That's why I hold my views.

You want me to care about existence like you do. Well I'm sorry, I can't. I have to have faith in that. Faith that God exists. Proof is entirely irrelevant to that.

Your conclusion is completely irrational EvF.

Irrational? I am saying that you are claiming valid reasons...but they have nothing to do with his existence??

So you have valid reasons to believe in God...but you admit you have NO reasons to believe he actually EXISTS?

So you believe in God's EXISTENCE wtihout any actual reasons for it....now THAT'S irrational.

How can you believe in HIM if you don't have any actual valid reasons to believe that HE exists in the first place?

You are calling me irrational when you have reasons for HIM but no actual reasons to believe that HE even exist in the first place???.

You say you need faith for that. So you admit you believe in God's actual existence without any 'reasons' for THAT at all...you just believe anyway...well THAT is damn irrational. That's "Faith" for you.

How can you believe in HIM with your 'reasons', rationally, if you admit that you have no 'reasons' that HE actually EXITS in the first place????.

You say I am irrational...I think you are basically admitting your irrationality. You admit you believe in God's EXISTENCE without any valid reasons at at all..you just believe anyway (which is irrational btw) - and call it 'faith' (which is irrational btw).

MY conclusion is irrational? I'm saying that if you believe in the EXISTENCE of God with NO valid reasons, then that's damn irrational!! - that's true right? What's irrational about that??

And if you DO have valid reasons then that WOULD count as evidence of some form (i.e: NON-empirical evidence) so where is it?

Well if you have no valid reasons to believe God exists, but you just believe anyway, you can call it 'faith' you can call it whatever - but belief in something's existence without any actual valid reasons TO believe it exists - that's bloody irrational!!

Right?

EvF

Great points Evie

Evie]
Irrational? I am saying that you are claiming valid reasons...but they have nothing to do with his existence??[/quote]

Erm.. yeah. Theres a reason for faith [b Wrote:in[/b] existence. But there can be no reasoning for his existence.

[quote='Evie]So you have valid reasons to believe in God...but you admit you have NO reasons to believe he actually EXISTS?

Yes. Believe = through faith. I can have no reason to know he exists.

'Evie Wrote:So you believe in God's EXISTENCE wtihout any actual reasons for it....now THAT'S irrational.

I believe (have faith) that God exists with good reason. I don't believe (have knowledge) of God's existence through reasoning.

You're mixing up belief = faith with belief = knowledge

Hmm interesting...

fr0dest0r Wrote:Erm.. yeah. There's a reason for faith in existence. But there can be no reasoning for his existence.

So no reasoning itself to believe in his existence....but there is a reason to believe in his existence ON FAITH (i.e: irrationally, without evidence (NE included) without reason).

What possible reason could there to be to believe in God's existence on faith? (i.e without evidence, without valid reasons to believe in his existence, just 'believing anyway' believing simply 'on faith', no evidence, no rationality).

Quote:Yes. Believe = through faith. I can have no reason to know he exists.

I don't 'KNOW' (absolutely) that he doesn't either. What I don't understand is what are your reasons to believe ON FAITH? What reasons can you have for believing in God without any evidence (and therefore without reason to believe he exists) - it seems empty to me. What are your reasons to believe God actually exists without evidence? (i.e: reasons to believe in him ON "Faith"? (which just seems irrational to me)).

Quote:I believe (have faith) that God exists with good reason.

How can you believe in God's actual existence ON FAITH with Good reason, when believing in something on faith means there are no valid reasons to believe he exists? (because if there were valid reasons to believe he exists then that would count as evidence of SOME form and therefore wouldn't be faith).

IOW: What good reasons can there be to irrationally believe in God? (I.e: On Faith; to believe in God's actual existence without evidence (so therefore without valid reasons because that would count as evidence of SOME form)) - Doesn't make sense to me.

Quote: I don't believe (have knowledge) of God's existence through reasoning.

Well what valid reasons can you have for believing in God with faith? If believing in faith is invalid because it's without evidence and if the reasons for believing in faith were valid then they WOULD count as evidence?

WHAT valid reasons for believing with faith (IE: WITHOUT valid reasons???)?

How can you believe in God ON FAITH (without evidence) FOR valid reasons (which if valid WOULD count as evidence of SOME form)???

EvF

I covered this in another thread yesterday Evie. But it's time for bed - Zebadee juss sed so. So g'nite

Gn... lol.

giff Wrote:No, it's not. Dark matter is commonly known to be something that is possible exists. They are also trying to find evidence of it which, atleast what I've heared, shouldn't be impossible.

Yes it is. Well possibly anyway. It may not even be what we think it is.

(May 14, 2009 at 11:14 am)g-mark Wrote:

giff Wrote:No, it's not. Dark matter is commonly known to be something that is possible exists. They are also trying to find evidence of it which, atleast what I've heared, shouldn't be impossible.

Yes it is. Well possibly anyway. It may not even be what we think it is.

Indeed, it's quite exiting acctually.