(June 4, 2018 at 11:17 am)Shell B Wrote: You know, Tibs and I were talking about this and he said there's a lot of victim blaming. I was like, "Come on. I'm not a victim. It's not a big deal." Then we talked about it, and I thought about it like this. Would you tell a woman who just got punched in the face by her abusive husband after calling him an asshole that "He shouldn't have done that, but you should have been nicer to him, since you know he has anger issues."? Now, I 100% realize it's an inflated analogy. Ham didn't hit anyone here, but the principal stands. You think everyone should be nicer to him so he won't fly off the handle because he has issues. It's not that you think he's a nice guy that's a problem. I don't think he's a bad person, either. It's the "but" you put at the end of "He shouldn't do that." that rankles. No buts, dude. No buts. There are things I shouldn't do. I shouldn't do them. Period.

Ahhhhh!  *my bold*

For me it is butts all the way down.  Oh wait, I think I've lost the thread of what you were saying.  

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(June 4, 2018 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't blame you for him calling you cunt. You didn't deserve it and it was uncalled for, as I've been saying all along. I just think both things are wrong - provocation and name calling.

"Wrong" is just so vague and portentous, especially -no offense- from the mouth of a Catholic.  Isn't "mean" what you're really talking about?  It is mean to call someone a cunt and mean to push someone's buttons when they're already flustered.

(June 4, 2018 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't blame you for him calling you cunt. You didn't deserve it and it was uncalled for, as I've been saying all along. I just think both things are wrong - provocation and name calling.

There's the but. I know you say you think it's wrong. You also think I provoked it. I called him out for making a passive-aggressive comment and then denying it had anything to do with another conversation. I even showed the post to Tibs before I said anything. I was like, "He's definitely bringing up that other conversation, right?" He agreed, so I posted. You're saying I take part of the blame for what he said because you think I provoked it, even if blaming me isn't your intention. You're saying you think everyone else who has had him freak out on them did too. Steel certainly didn't, if his posting history can say anything about his interactions with people. I let what Hammy said slide off my back the second he said it. I laughed and handed my phone to Tibs, who didn't laugh. The "buts" in this thread, and the conflating of being an asshole with being mentally ill are far worse than an off-the-hinges post about how much of a cunt I am. It's like the 30th such post on this forum. Who cares? What you guys are saying goes much more deep and is much more of an actual problem for actual people who are "victims" or have mental illness.

(June 4, 2018 at 11:17 am)Shell B Wrote: You know, Tibs and I were talking about this and he said there's a lot of victim blaming. I was like, "Come on. I'm not a victim. It's not a big deal." Then we talked about it, and I thought about it like this. Would you tell a woman who just got punched in the face by her abusive husband after calling him an asshole that "He shouldn't have done that, but you should have been nicer to him, since you know he has anger issues."? Now, I 100% realize it's an inflated analogy. Ham didn't hit anyone here, but the principal stands. You think everyone should be nicer to him so he won't fly off the handle because he has issues. It's not that you think he's a nice guy that's a problem. I don't think he's a bad person, either. It's the "but" you put at the end of "He shouldn't do that." that rankles. No buts, dude. No buts. There are things I shouldn't do. I shouldn't do them. Period.

Perhaps it's an 'and' rather than a 'but'? Are you sure you're not putting words in people's mouths?

(June 4, 2018 at 11:35 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(June 4, 2018 at 11:17 am)Shell B Wrote: You know, Tibs and I were talking about this and he said there's a lot of victim blaming. I was like, "Come on. I'm not a victim. It's not a big deal." Then we talked about it, and I thought about it like this. Would you tell a woman who just got punched in the face by her abusive husband after calling him an asshole that "He shouldn't have done that, but you should have been nicer to him, since you know he has anger issues."? Now, I 100% realize it's an inflated analogy. Ham didn't hit anyone here, but the principal stands. You think everyone should be nicer to him so he won't fly off the handle because he has issues. It's not that you think he's a nice guy that's a problem. I don't think he's a bad person, either. It's the "but" you put at the end of "He shouldn't do that." that rankles. No buts, dude. No buts. There are things I shouldn't do. I shouldn't do them. Period.

Perhaps it's an 'and' rather than a 'but'?  Are you sure you're not putting words in people's mouths?

It could be an and. I will grant you that. It doesn't seem like it all around, though. Since I'm generally speaking about the people who are talking about provocation in this thread, it really may not apply to Catholic Lady. However, I did see several times, here and in Slack, where LfC said she thought I was picking a fight with Hammy in that thread, even acknowledging that she didn't read the other thread where it stemmed from.

As for the "you should be nice to people who are mentally ill because being an asshole who flies off the handle is totally a symptom," that's CL. Sorry, lady. You know I like and respect you. I just think it's stigmatizing and NAMI agrees with me. You should read up on the stigma-free campaigns.

I agree with the analogy Shell B but we really should stop speaking about it.

(June 4, 2018 at 11:31 am)Shell B Wrote:

(June 4, 2018 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't blame you for him calling you cunt. You didn't deserve it and it was uncalled for, as I've been saying all along. I just think both things are wrong - provocation and name calling.

There's the but. I know you say you think it's wrong. You also think I provoked it. I called him out for making a passive-aggressive comment and then denying it had anything to do with another conversation. I even showed the post to Tibs before I said anything. I was like, "He's definitely bringing up that other conversation, right?" He agreed, so I posted. You're saying I take part of the blame for what he said because you think I provoked it, even if blaming me isn't your intention. You're saying you think everyone else who has had him freak out on them did too. Steel certainly didn't, if his posting history can say anything about his interactions with people. I let what Hammy said slide off my back the second he said it. I laughed and handed my phone to Tibs, who didn't laugh. The "buts" in this thread, and the conflating of being an asshole with being mentally ill are far worse than an off-the-hinges post about how much of a cunt I am. It's like the 30th such post on this forum. Who cares? What you guys are saying goes much more deep and is much more of an actual problem for actual people who are "victims" or have mental illness.

I'm sorry you feel that I am blaming you. I don't know how else to express my position, so I'll just leave with saying again that you did not deserve those comments and that they were completely uncalled for.

(June 4, 2018 at 11:42 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I agree with the analogy Shell B but we really should stop speaking about it.

Yes, we should. We probably won't. It's become a conversation about some fundamental social concepts, so it has passing interest to several of us. Don't worry. I'll get bored. I have the attention span of a child.

(June 4, 2018 at 11:39 am)Shell B Wrote:

(June 4, 2018 at 11:35 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Perhaps it's an 'and' rather than a 'but'?  Are you sure you're not putting words in people's mouths?

It could be an and. I will grant you that. It doesn't seem like it all around, though. Since I'm generally speaking about the people who are talking about provocation in this thread, it really may not apply to Catholic Lady. However, I did see several times, here and in Slack, where LfC said she thought I was picking a fight with Hammy in that thread, even acknowledging that she didn't read the other thread where it stemmed from.

As for the "you should be nice to people who are mentally ill because being an asshole who flies off the handle is totally a symptom," that's CL. Sorry, lady. You know I like and respect you. I just think it's stigmatizing and NAMI agrees with me. You should read up on the stigma-free campaigns.

It's ok, I know you respect me and I think you know I respect you too. None of this is hostility towards you on my end, just discussing my opinion on how I would personally approach someone like Ham. 

I'd say for the bolded, it's more like "You shouldn't poke at people who you know have difficulty controlling their emotions and have a tendency to blow up. If he says something that is out of line, you don't have to be "nice" (you call it nice, I call it careful lol) in your approach to him if you don't want to be. You can simply just choose to not say anything. You already know what's gonna happen if you do, so why do it?"   

If Ham were here, this is what I would say to him:

"At the end of the day, you can only control your own actions. If a person says something that upsets you, think about it this way: You can't control them. So instead of responding by calling them nasty names and telling them to fuck off, just choose to let it go. Prove to them that you can be a level headed person who won't be baited."

As you can see, I'm not telling him to keep blowing up. I'm telling him to refrain himself the same way I'm saying the rest of us should refrain ourselves with him. It's the same message to both parties.

(June 4, 2018 at 11:44 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 4, 2018 at 11:31 am)Shell B Wrote: There's the but. I know you say you think it's wrong. You also think I provoked it. I called him out for making a passive-aggressive comment and then denying it had anything to do with another conversation. I even showed the post to Tibs before I said anything. I was like, "He's definitely bringing up that other conversation, right?" He agreed, so I posted. You're saying I take part of the blame for what he said because you think I provoked it, even if blaming me isn't your intention. You're saying you think everyone else who has had him freak out on them did too. Steel certainly didn't, if his posting history can say anything about his interactions with people. I let what Hammy said slide off my back the second he said it. I laughed and handed my phone to Tibs, who didn't laugh. The "buts" in this thread, and the conflating of being an asshole with being mentally ill are far worse than an off-the-hinges post about how much of a cunt I am. It's like the 30th such post on this forum. Who cares? What you guys are saying goes much more deep and is much more of an actual problem for actual people who are "victims" or have mental illness.

I'm sorry you feel that I am blaming you. I don't know how else to express my position, so I'll just leave with saying again that you did not deserve those comments and that they were completely uncalled for.

I think Jor is probably right that it's more of an "and" than a but for you. So maybe I'm wrong. It happens (gasp).  That said, I do think you'd benefit from a broader understanding of what it means to be more or less culpable for something due to mental illness. Mentally ill people do know right from wrong the vast majority of the time, and they are capable of apologizing and trying to correct their behavior. In fact, they should do both things whenever warranted. There's a reason why autism isn't a defense in court, but psychosis is. Do you know what I mean?

(June 4, 2018 at 12:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:  You can simply just choose to not say anything. You already know what's gonna happen if you do, so why do it?"   

This is a forum. We're literally here to talk. My point is that it shouldn't happen, and no one else should feel like they need to actively ignore him in order to be able to participate in discussions here.

I add the caveat that I know for a fact that I'm a bitchy queen. I say bitchy things to bitchy people. I get into it with people who are abrasive, likely because I can be abrasive. It's like cats honing their claws on your furniture. I get it all out with people who are equally bitchy. I doubt anyone could find an instance of me doing it to a nice person, but my point is that I am not without similar flaws to Hammy. I'm just pretty damn sure I have a large measure more self control. He could benefit from more of it, and it has made me sad in the past that he doesn't make any effort in that department. He really, really needs to work on some things. His friends should keep trying to help him. I've tried as much as I can for someone I'm not close to.