(January 1, 2019 at 3:04 pm)Angelina Wrote: You are only pointing to what amounts to a handful of people in Christianity who have mega churches,

(January 2, 2019 at 12:08 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: I didn't mention megas

That is all you could have been mentioning. The average salary of a Christian Pastor is only $48K per year and that is once they have 10-20 years experience.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Pastor/Salary

(January 1, 2019 at 3:04 pm)Angelina Wrote: mega churches, and those mega churches are all giving 80-90% of their money to charity each year

(January 2, 2019 at 12:08 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Lol and you fall for their lies? Is it because they are Christians and therefore you believe "can't lie".

It's public information from the IRS posted online.

(January 2, 2019 at 12:08 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

Memes are not proof of anything. Be specific.

(January 6, 2019 at 8:56 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Right, so if a supernatural exists, it *might* be a cause for physical things. But this is the opposite direction: it goes from supernatural to physical.

But that isn't the question I asked. I asked how the existence of something physical is evidence of something supernatural. To be evidence, it has to change the probabilities of the existence of a supernatural. How does it do so?

Because everything that exists did not miraculously come into existence the way it has without a source of knowledge and power. How could it possibly?

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(January 4, 2019 at 4:42 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Oh yeah? You better like society with gigantic corporations that can subsidize the government and make them poison the people so they can make a profit?
I do get why Christians are pushing this "big government" mantra because then lobbyists can't control the politicians. This way rich companies, including Churches, can buy politicians and make them do what ever they want. And this is why Christians love Trump no matter how "unchristian" he behaves because they can easily buy him and as oil and coal companies are having they way with him so do Christian organizations, I mean take Betsy DeVos who is loosening federal regulations on religious colleges and universities so that faith-based entities can receive federally administered funding.

Okay, please stop pretending Christian is synonymous with right wing republican. That is a stereotype that is perpetuated by television and is in no way accurate. No Christian I know personally likes Trump in any way, although some like Pence. Here are the actual facts from the Pew Research Center statistical analysis:

Orthodox Christians are 34% Republican and 44% Democrat
Mainline Protestants are 44% Republican and 40% Democrat
Catholics are 37% Republican and 44% Democrat

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landsc...filiation/

(January 11, 2019 at 1:00 pm)Angelina Wrote: Because everything that exists did not miraculously come into existence

Let's start right here.

You are correct. It didn't miraculously come into existence.
Everything that exists did not come into existence. It already existed in the form of energy.

All ice cubes did not miraculously come into existence. Water already existed. Environmental forces changed and ice formed from the existing water.

The same is for the universe. (Not exactly the same. It's an imperfect analogy)
The energy of the universe already existed. Environmental forces changed and an expansion event took place. Matter formed from the existing energy.

Nothing else is required. It's just change.
The only thing that ever remains the same is change.

(January 11, 2019 at 1:00 pm)Angelina Wrote:

(January 6, 2019 at 8:56 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Right, so if a supernatural exists, it *might* be a cause for physical things. But this is the opposite direction: it goes from supernatural to physical.

But that isn't the question I asked. I asked how the existence of something physical is evidence of something supernatural. To be evidence, it has to change the probabilities of the existence of a supernatural. How does it do so?

Because everything that exists did not miraculously come into existence the way it has without a source of knowledge and power. How could it possibly?

Wait just a moment. You are saying no miracles can possibly occur? As a christian, you now have a huge problem.

(January 11, 2019 at 1:00 pm)Angelina Wrote:

(January 4, 2019 at 4:42 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Oh yeah? You better like society with gigantic corporations that can subsidize the government and make them poison the people so they can make a profit?
I do get why Christians are pushing this "big government" mantra because then lobbyists can't control the politicians. This way rich companies, including Churches, can buy politicians and make them do what ever they want. And this is why Christians love Trump no matter how "unchristian" he behaves because they can easily buy him and as oil and coal companies are having they way with him so do Christian organizations, I mean take Betsy DeVos who is loosening federal regulations on religious colleges and universities so that faith-based entities can receive federally administered funding.

Okay, please stop pretending Christian is synonymous with right wing republican. That is a stereotype that is perpetuated by television and is in no way accurate. No Christian I know personally likes Trump in any way, although some like Pence. Here are the actual facts from the Pew Research Center statistical analysis:

Orthodox Christians are 34% Republican and 44% Democrat
Mainline Protestants are 44% Republican and 40% Democrat
Catholics are 37% Republican and 44% Democrat

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landsc...filiation/

Wow. you spin so much that if I threw you in a bath, I could do my laundry.

(January 11, 2019 at 1:00 pm)Angelina Wrote:

(January 6, 2019 at 8:56 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Right, so if a supernatural exists, it *might* be a cause for physical things. But this is the opposite direction: it goes from supernatural to physical.

But that isn't the question I asked. I asked how the existence of something physical is evidence of something supernatural. To be evidence, it has to change the probabilities of the existence of a supernatural. How does it do so?

Because everything that exists did not miraculously come into existence the way it has without a source of knowledge and power. How could it possibly?

Knowledge isn't required. Stars are formed all the time without any knowledge input from anyone. All that is required is the action of the physical laws. As for 'power', that term is rather ambiguous in this context, but again, the physical laws are what mediate the formation of things.
But, and this is crucial, the known physical laws *do* allow for a 'universe from nothing', in part because the the total energy balance of the universe is zero (the gravitational energy is negative and exactly balances the energy from other sources).

(January 11, 2019 at 8:05 pm)polymath257 Wrote:

(January 11, 2019 at 1:00 pm)Angelina Wrote: Because everything that exists did not miraculously come into existence the way it has without a source of knowledge and power. How could it possibly?

Knowledge isn't required. Stars are formed all the time without any knowledge input from anyone. All that is required is the action of the physical laws. As for 'power', that term is rather ambiguous in this context, but again, the physical laws are what mediate the formation of things.
But, and this is crucial, the known physical laws *do* allow for a 'universe from nothing', in part because the the total energy balance of the universe is zero (the gravitational energy is negative and exactly balances the energy from other sources).

It's not new matter, so N/A.  So far no physical laws that allow a universe from nothing. Just conjecture.

(January 11, 2019 at 6:05 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: Let's start right here.

You are correct. It didn't miraculously come into existence.
Everything that exists did not come into existence. It already existed in the form of energy.

How was energy existing in the universe? How did it come into existence in the first place and if you think it has always existed then why did it always exist? How is it capable of producing life with self-awareness, eyesight, hearing, smell, intelligence, senses to experience pleasure and pain, sexual desires, a high functiioning elaborate body with a organs all serving a purpose, self healing and equipped with an immune system? Your claim is that this all "just happened" without any sort of God, no information or knowledge of anything? And please do not try to insult my intelligence by pretending science can explain any of those things. All science can do is observe some of those things occuring. That does not explain how or why.

(January 11, 2019 at 6:05 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: All ice cubes did not miraculously come into existence. Water already existed. Environmental forces changed and ice formed from the existing water.

The same is for the universe. (Not exactly the same. It's an imperfect analogy)
The energy of the universe already existed. Environmental forces changed and an expansion event took place. Matter formed from the existing energy.

Nothing else is required. It's just change.
The only thing that ever remains the same is change.

No offense, but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It does not explain any of the things I mentioned or a million other things in our universe. You are claiming an unknowing universe just miraculously makes things for no reason. How do you even manage to believe that?

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(January 11, 2019 at 8:05 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Knowledge isn't required. Stars are formed all the time without any knowledge input from anyone.

That is a straight up guess and not proven in any way.

(January 11, 2019 at 8:05 pm)polymath257 Wrote: All that is required is the action of the physical laws. As for 'power', that term is rather ambiguous in this context, but again, the physical laws are what mediate the formation of things.
But, and this is crucial, the known physical laws *do* allow for a 'universe from nothing', in part because the the total energy balance of the universe is zero (the gravitational energy is negative and exactly balances the energy from other sources).

Physical laws that came to be how? A universe from nothing is an unproven guess with nothing to substantiate it.

(January 11, 2019 at 9:10 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

(January 11, 2019 at 8:05 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Knowledge isn't required. Stars are formed all the time without any knowledge input from anyone. All that is required is the action of the physical laws. As for 'power', that term is rather ambiguous in this context, but again, the physical laws are what mediate the formation of things.
But, and this is crucial, the known physical laws *do* allow for a 'universe from nothing', in part because the the total energy balance of the universe is zero (the gravitational energy is negative and exactly balances the energy from other sources).

It's not new matter, so N/A.  So far no physical laws that allow a universe from nothing. Just conjecture.

Um as I said in another thread about "something vs nothing" neither require a super cognition.


"Infinite regress" destroys the logic of inserting a super cognition as a starting point. 

It does not matter if this universe came out of nothing, or was a result of the death of a prior universe. Scientists have predicted in the future that all the energy in the universe we live in now will run out.

You are insisting on a "who" being the starting point, instead of considering that the cycle of on and off are natural not a factory product.


Infinity is a possibility, as much as coming out of nothing is. But, even with infinity, it does not have to be a cognition doing it. Just like there is no Frosty The Snowman God causing winter, leading to a Peter Cotton Tail  God caused spring, or  Jalapeno Speedy Gonzales God causing summer, leading to a Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown God causing fall.

The evidence to "all this" is looking like a wave function, which leads to particles, then atoms then structures that lead to both non living objects and life itself.  None of what science is saying now, is pointing to Allah or Yahweh, or Vishnu or Buddha, or Jesus anymore than observations of lightening prove the existence of Thor.

Personally I lean to infinity. But not in a super cognition causing it. I see the "forever" as being a natural cycle of the death of some prior universe becoming fuel for the one we live in now, which will eventually suffer from "heat death", and like dead tree, rot and become fuel leading to another big bang leading to a future universe that comes out of the death of the one we are in.

Much like a light switch can start of in the "off" position, turn on for a while, run out of fuel, go back to off, and spark the on position again because of the rotted fuel from the on position.

Our species cognition is not a product of a factory. It is a result of evolution. We are finite as a species, and just like we were not around 4 billion years ago, we will not be around 10 billion years from now. We are simply a temporary blip in this current universe.

(January 11, 2019 at 1:00 pm)Angelina Wrote: Because everything that exists did not miraculously come into existence the way it has without a source of knowledge and power. How could it possibly?

(January 11, 2019 at 6:19 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Wait just a moment. You are saying no miracles can possibly occur? As a christian, you now have a huge problem.

Not what I said. Try reading it again.

(January 11, 2019 at 9:36 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 11, 2019 at 9:10 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: It's not new matter, so N/A.  So far no physical laws that allow a universe from nothing. Just conjecture.

Um as I said in another thread about "something vs nothing" neither require a super cognition.


"Infinite regress" destroys the logic of inserting a super cognition as a starting point. 

It does not matter if this universe came out of nothing, or was a result of the death of a prior universe. Scientists have predicted in the future that all the energy in the universe we live in now will run out.

You are insisting on a "who" being the starting point, instead of considering that the cycle of on and off are natural not a factory product.


Infinity is a possibility, as much as coming out of nothing is. But, even with infinity, it does not have to be a cognition doing it. Just like there is no Frosty The Snowman God causing winter, leading to a Peter Cotton Tail  God caused spring, or  Jalapeno Speedy Gonzales God causing summer, leading to a Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown God causing fall.

The evidence to "all this" is looking like a wave function, which leads to particles, then atoms then structures that lead to both non living objects and life itself.  None of what science is saying now, is pointing to Allah or Yahweh, or Vishnu or Buddha, or Jesus anymore than observations of lightening prove the existence of Thor.

Personally I lean to infinity. But not in a super cognition causing it. I see the "forever" as being a natural cycle of the death of some prior universe becoming fuel for the one we live in now, which will eventually suffer from "heat death", and like dead tree, rot and become fuel leading to another big bang leading to a future universe that comes out of the death of the one we are in.

Much like a light switch can start of in the "off" position, turn on for a while, run out of fuel, go back to off, and spark the on position again because of the rotted fuel from the on position.

Our species cognition is not a product of a factory. It is a result of evolution. We are finite as a species, and just like we were not around 4 billion years ago, we will not be around 10 billion years from now. We are simply a temporary blip in this current universe.

Why would there have to be an infinite regress?  Actually I would assert quite the opposite, but happy to hear you out.