(April 27, 2019 at 7:54 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Another reason to be a materialist -- materialism is, unlike dualism, falsifiable.

Okay. How is materialism falsifiable?

(April 28, 2019 at 9:50 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(April 27, 2019 at 7:54 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Another reason to be a materialist -- materialism is, unlike dualism, falsifiable.

Okay. How is materialism falsifiable?

Veridicality during NDEs of remote identification and viewing of remotely concealed objects under controlled labratory conditions.

(April 28, 2019 at 10:50 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(April 28, 2019 at 9:50 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Okay.  How is materialism falsifiable?

Veridicality during NDEs of remote identification and viewing of remotely concealed objects under controlled labratory conditions.

Well, beyond being rather cryptic, I don't see how that would falsify materialism.

Wait? So the following is not Nondualism vs Dualism? 

(April 28, 2019 at 10:53 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(April 28, 2019 at 10:50 am)Jehanne Wrote: Veridicality during NDEs of remote identification and viewing of remotely concealed objects under controlled labratory conditions.

Well, beyond being rather cryptic, I don't see how that would falsify materialism.

Out of body experiences under controlled conditions.

(April 28, 2019 at 12:21 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(April 28, 2019 at 10:53 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Well, beyond being rather cryptic, I don't see how that would falsify materialism.

Out of body experiences under controlled conditions.

Yes, and how does that falsify materialism?

(April 29, 2019 at 8:25 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(April 28, 2019 at 12:21 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Out of body experiences under controlled conditions.

Yes, and how does that falsify materialism?

If the mind is a product of the brain, then it is physically impossible for someone to have a genuine out-of-body experience whereby their "soul" leaves their body and witnesses events in the physical world that they cannot possibly see.  Near-death experiences, if verified under controlled conditions, would be proof of an immaterial soul:

Sam Parnia -- AWAreness during REsuscitation (AWARE) study

(April 29, 2019 at 9:16 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(April 29, 2019 at 8:25 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Yes, and how does that falsify materialism?

If the mind is a product of the brain, then it is physically impossible for someone to have a genuine out-of-body experience whereby their "soul" leaves their body and witnesses events in the physical world that they cannot possibly see.  Near-death experiences, if verified under controlled conditions, would be proof of an immaterial soul:

Sam Parnia -- AWAreness during REsuscitation (AWARE) study

Mmmm ... no ... in my opinion ... lots of assumptions being made

Something like a magnet could be seen as having woo before we understood the physical phenomena ....

(April 27, 2019 at 3:00 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(April 24, 2019 at 5:20 pm)Won2blv Wrote: I would say that the schizophrenic is experiencing something real and based in reality, but it is being relayed and translated incorrectly. That's why the schizophrenic distrusts most people, because they do not understand the reality of the schizophrenics experience.

You are not correct, schizophrenics do not experience something real and based on reality. They are experiencing things that only appear in their minds. They see and hear people and things that do not exist in consensus reality.

If you are trying to say, that we don't all experience that same reality, which we are able to show it exists using evidence, then I am not sure this is a useful conversation.

Quote:I believe the opening of consciousness through psychedelics would benefit mankind. I hear your experience and feel like we came to many of the same conclusions with different words used to explain how. I believe this history of creation lies insides our DNA and it gives us real comfort to know that history as far back as possible.

No, we didn't come to the same conclusion. You seem to have concluded that your Ayahuasca experience points to some underlying reality, beyond what is evidently true. I concluded that my experiences are a product of my mind being drastically chemically altered for a period of time.

Quote:And IMHO, I believe that if an atheist were to cut off the ego that disallows even a shred of faith in God, they could experience the divine in a way that will give them comfort that a higher consciousness is watching over us, even if it isn't able stop wicked humans from being wicked

I do not believe faith, in the way I think you are defining it here, is a good thing. To me, religious faith is no different than gullibility. If one had good reasons to believe that a god exists, they wouldn't need to rely on faith.

Couldn't faith be used as a justification to believe ANYTHING? Even conflicting conclusions?

Faith is not a reliable path to truth. How could it be, when faith can be used as justification to have mutually exclusive god beliefs, believe in crystal healing, Chakras, Tarot, etc, etc, etc.

All I require to believe a god exists, is to be provided with demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument. Got any?

And no, you subjective experiences with Ayahuasca don't count.

Do you agree that we're not ACTUALLY experiencing the actual sights we see, the smells we smell, and the noises we hear, but rather we are experiencing a slightly delayed version that our consciousness creates? Almost like a movie production and we are the only guest invited.

Yes, I agree that a schizophrenic is not experiencing reality from the viewpoint of one agreed upon consensus, but I do believe that their consciousness created a real image or experience and that the image or experience is based on some kind of root of reality, or else it wouldn't exist. Maybe the consciousness is creating a false image, but that image may be a short cut the brain takes to express a feeling. So in my opinion, I believe it would be better for a schizophrenic to embrace their visions with the knowledge that it is their special experience. But only if they have the mental capacity to understand that there is still one general reality

And I wasn't saying you completely agreed with me, I just thought it interesting that you had similar epiphanies with just a different narrative.

(April 29, 2019 at 1:54 pm)Won2blv Wrote:

(April 27, 2019 at 3:00 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: You are not correct, schizophrenics do not experience something real and based on reality. They are experiencing things that only appear in their minds. They see and hear people and things that do not exist in consensus reality.

If you are trying to say, that we don't all experience that same reality, which we are able to show it exists using evidence, then I am not sure this is a useful conversation.


No, we didn't come to the same conclusion. You seem to have concluded that your Ayahuasca experience points to some underlying reality, beyond what is evidently true. I concluded that my experiences are a product of my mind being drastically chemically altered for a period of time.


I do not believe faith, in the way I think you are defining it here, is a good thing. To me, religious faith is no different than gullibility. If one had good reasons to believe that a god exists, they wouldn't need to rely on faith.

Couldn't faith be used as a justification to believe ANYTHING? Even conflicting conclusions?

Faith is not a reliable path to truth. How could it be, when faith can be used as justification to have mutually exclusive god beliefs, believe in crystal healing, Chakras, Tarot, etc, etc, etc.

All I require to believe a god exists, is to be provided with demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument. Got any?

And no, you subjective experiences with Ayahuasca don't count.

Do you agree that we're not ACTUALLY experiencing the actual sights we see, the smells we smell, and the noises we hear, but rather we are experiencing a slightly delayed version that our consciousness creates? Almost like a movie production and we are the only guest invited.

Yes. All of reality is filtered through our senses.

But here's the thing. If 1000's of people (that are not suffering from some mental illness) all examine the same coffee mug, with some minor discrepancies, you will get very close descriptions. They are using their senses, as flawed as they are, to describe something that they all can agree exists in reality.

With your, and my Ayahuasca experiences, there is no way to relates those to anything that exists in reality.

Quote:Yes, I agree that a schizophrenic is not experiencing reality from the viewpoint of one agreed upon consensus, but I do believe that their consciousness created a real image or experience and that the image or experience is based on some kind of root of reality, or else it wouldn't exist. Maybe the consciousness is creating a false image, but that image may be a short cut the brain takes to express a feeling. So in my opinion, I believe it would be better for a schizophrenic to embrace their visions with the knowledge that it is their special experience. But only if they have the mental capacity to understand that there is still one general reality

You are just wrong on this. It is almost certain, that schizophrenics are not experiencing something in reality.

As far as allowing schizophrenics to 'embrace their visions' is cruel, and quite possibly dangerous to the embrace their visions and to other people.

Quote:And I wasn't saying you completely agreed with me, I just thought it interesting that you had similar epiphanies with just a different narrative.

But the difference is, you are the one adding a whole bunch of stuff that is not in evidence. So, you are the one being irrational about your experiences, I am basing mine on actual evidence.