(August 31, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: If we're allowed to think of this in relation to other times and other cultures, then I think theism is often rational. 

If you grow up in a society in which all accepted explanations of things are woven into the religious views, and all the sane successful adults hold these things to be true, it would be arbitrary and irrational to reject theism. 

I think that an educated person in Paris in the 13th century would be entirely reasonable to be religious, without question. In the 21st century, it depends more on the metaphysics he has, which are not as self-evidently in sync with everything else in the world.

I agree; although you seem to place more emphasis on the context than the subject compared to me, but both go hand in hand. It reminds me of William James (1896) notion of live vs dead hypothesis. A hypothesis is live when it appears as a real possibility to someone's mind, and it is dead when it does not. So to use your example, geocentric beliefs might be a dead hypotheses to most of us because it isn't among our minds possibilities, but to someone living during that era the hypothesis was live. Christian beliefs might be a live hypothesis to people in America but it is dead to those living elsewhere.

An important point he mentions on the matter is that liveness or deadness are not intrinsic qualities to these hypothesis, they are subject-dependant, being alive or dead only in the person's mind. Perhaps we can add that live hypothesis appear rational to the one for whom it is live, and dead hypothesis apear irrational to the one for whom it is dead.

Reference: James, W. (1896). The will to believe: And other essays in popular philosophy. A Public Domain Book.

(August 31, 2019 at 10:34 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: Personally, in my entire life I have never met a theist whose religious beliefs I would consider rational. 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Christian belief in America has more to do with conforming to family traditions and local society and has little to do with any rational thought. For the majority I interact with IRL, the extent of their hypothesis is "because I'm told I am".

(August 31, 2019 at 12:07 pm)wyzas Wrote: Christian belief in America has more to do with conforming to family traditions and local society and has little to do with any rational thought. For the majority I interact with IRL, the extent of their hypothesis is "because I'm told I am".

And they say what they're expected to say, to family, friends, church inquisitioners, and pollsters.

(August 31, 2019 at 12:07 pm)wyzas Wrote: Christian belief in America has more to do with conforming to family traditions and local society and has little to do with any rational thought. For the majority I interact with IRL, the extent of their hypothesis is "because I'm told I am".

That has not been my experience; perhaps it differs by location and denomination. My guess is you will find such attitudes among the older establishments, like Catholics, Lutherans, an other European denominations that have migrated to America.

Most of my interactions are with Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter-Day Saints, and Seventh-Day Adventists. They are relatively new denominations, birthed in the states, so they lack the type of culture and tradition of Catholics for example. I lived in Tennessee for a few years, and my impression of the culture there was that most people that were religious were sincere in their beliefs.

(August 31, 2019 at 5:23 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(August 30, 2019 at 7:54 pm)mcc1789 Wrote: Do you agree or disagree that theism is ever rational?

If we're allowed to think of this in relation to other times and other cultures, then I think theism is often rational. 

If you grow up in a society in which all accepted explanations of things are woven into the religious views, and all the sane successful adults hold these things to be true, it would be arbitrary and irrational to reject theism. 

For example, the medieval worldview was an intricately interwoven explanatory system, in which the Ptolemaic universe, and God's influence flowing through that universe, psychology, history, morality -- all these things were of a piece. 

There was also empirical evidence for some of it. Every time a sailor used a Ptolemaic star chart to navigate safely home, or a stargazer used one to predict an eclipse, it served to strengthen credence in the system. 

This is one of the reasons that people resisted new suggestions that the system was wrong -- switching to a heliocentric model was not only unproved speculation in the beginning (until it was proven of course), but was seen to work against far more than astronomy. 

I think that an educated person in Paris in the 13th century would be entirely reasonable to be religious, without question. In the 21st century, it depends more on the metaphysics he has, which are not as self-evidently in sync with everything else in the world.

Yes, those examples are similar to my own thoughts. I can't fault someone for believing in such scenarios. We're all ignorant and mistaken sometimes. It doesn't make us irrational, unless we are willfully ignorant and refuse to correct mistakes.

Fuck that shit! Because I said so!

Have a nice day, please come again.

(August 31, 2019 at 12:38 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(August 31, 2019 at 12:07 pm)wyzas Wrote: Christian belief in America has more to do with conforming to family traditions and local society and has little to do with any rational thought. For the majority I interact with IRL, the extent of their hypothesis is "because I'm told I am".

That has not been my experience; perhaps it differs by location and denomination. My guess is you will find such attitudes among the older establishments, like Catholics, Lutherans, an other European denominations that have migrated to America.

Most of my interactions are with Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter-Day Saints, and Seventh-Day Adventists. They are relatively new denominations, birthed in the states, so they lack the type of culture and tradition of Catholics for example. I lived in Tennessee for a few years, and my impression of the culture there was that most people that were religious were sincere in their beliefs.

I don't doubt that they are sincere, but we are not discussing sincere. A lot of people are sincere about alien visitation or the healing power of crystals.

I doubt that they have ever taken a serious rational look at the religious beliefs and simply accepted. Most don't want to take that rational look as that would cause cognitive dissonance. 

(August 31, 2019 at 2:40 pm)wyzas Wrote: [quote='John 6IX Breezy' pid='1929876' dateline='1567269494']

I don't doubt that they are sincere, but we are not discussing sincere. A lot of people are sincere about alien visitation or the healing power of crystals.

I doubt that they have ever taken a serious rational look at the religious beliefs and simply accepted. Most don't want to take that rational look as that would cause cognitive dissonance. 

Sincerity matters when you described them as having a hypocritical stance that is externally derived but not internally applied: I am "because I'm told I am." If, to the contrary, their beliefs are sincerely their own, it is because the belief is rational to them.

(August 31, 2019 at 2:47 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(August 31, 2019 at 2:40 pm)wyzas Wrote:

(August 31, 2019 at 12:38 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: I don't doubt that they are sincere, but we are not discussing sincere. A lot of people are sincere about alien visitation or the healing power of crystals.

I doubt that they have ever taken a serious rational look at the religious beliefs and simply accepted. Most don't want to take that rational look as that would cause cognitive dissonance. 

Sincerity matters when you described them as having a hypocritical stance that is externally derived but not internally applied: I am "because I'm told I am." If, to the contrary, their beliefs are sincerely their own, it is because the belief is rational to them.

I don't think I've called them hypocrites but thanks for putting words in my mouth. I'm not talking "rational to them" but rational to an outside observer/third person perspective. My perspective would be that they are avoiding a rational look at the beliefs as a way to avoid cognitive dissonance in favor of emotional reasons/security.