(August 16, 2020 at 11:46 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: As I mentioned above, solar power would have been a better choice. If a little old meat sack can realize this I have question God's abilities in that area.

Two questions:

1. Food is not exclusively about energy. It also introduces the raw materials needed to build and repair an organism. How would you account for this by switching to solar energy?

2. How much solar energy does it take to operate a human being? In the case of phototrophic bacteria the organisms are microscopic. And in the case of plants they can do relatively little.

And in either case both organisms exist. It seems strange to say God didn't consider solar energy when there are creatures, which religions believe to be made by God, that do use solar energy. Perhaps a better criticisms would be the absence of nuclear energy in biological organisms?

How does a plant get that material?

(August 16, 2020 at 12:09 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: How does a plant get that material?

The carbon in the air I believe.

(August 16, 2020 at 12:10 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(August 16, 2020 at 12:09 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: How does a plant get that material?

The carbon in the air I believe.

And from the ground. A non-sessile plant could do better, moving when the resources were depleted.

Don't forget the carnivorous plants. God is mysterious and tricky. (apologetics 101)

(August 16, 2020 at 12:21 pm)brewer Wrote: Don't forget the carnivorous plants. God is mysterious and tricky.

The Penis Fly Trap has zipper-like teeth.

(August 16, 2020 at 12:12 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: And from the ground. A non-sessile plant could do better, moving when the resources were depleted.

My assumption would be that a plant which moves requires more (or different) nutrients than a plant which doesn't. Because organisms use what they use, in order to be what they are, and do what they do. Thus why a plant is constrained in its form by it's use of solar energy and we aren't.

Waste exists because there aren't deposits of pure carbon or glucose around. Nutrients are found alongside other substances. And it makes sense for digestive system to parse apart food, keep what it needs, and leave behind what it doesn't.

Perhaps a better criticisms would be why God didn't put easily accessible deposits of every nutrient around. But then again, it seems easier to just eat a fruit with potassium, than to go hunt for potassium, sodium and glucose deposits individually. Not to mention the dose in just a spoonful of something like potassium probably far exceeds your needs anyway (I don't actually know).

Eating a fruit and discarding what's not needed seems far more reasonable to me.

(August 15, 2020 at 7:47 pm)Belacqua Wrote: As we see so often, the issue comes down to "I have a value which I hold to unquestioningly, and the God I don't believe in doesn't seem to share this value, therefore God can't be so great."

In this case the value is efficiency. Why would a god make a system with inefficiency. The idea that an omniscient being might have reasons unknown to me is abhorrent.

First, it would be good to question whether efficiency is always a good idea. Critics of the industrial revolution were pointing out 200 years ago that the efficient production of goods often led to various other problems. So efficiency in itself is not always good. I suppose people don't read Ruskin any more, but he was pretty eloquent about the difference between an efficiently mass-produced chair and one made by an experienced craftsman. And of course nobody admires the Nazi's extremely efficient methods of extermination.

Second, there is evidence that if this world was made by a god, it is based on abundance. Ridiculous overabundance which doesn't require efficiency. People kind of don't need all the space that there is in the universe, but apparently this imaginary god wanted to make it. Not to mention the many species of beetles. So any ideas about God which acknowledged reality would have to see values other than efficiency for people.

Depending on how you read the New Testament, it can certainly be interpreted as advocating wildly inefficient overabundance in how we treat people. And classical theology says that God made the whole universe not because it was an efficient way to get something done (God needs nothing) but because something which is overabundantly good will overflow.

That’s not really what this is about.

The universe we can observe is exactly what we’d expect from a trial and error/hit and miss  process. While it is entirely possible that a deliberate creator made things this way, it is a moral imperative to ask, ‘Why this way and not some other?’ (which, incidentally, is the basis of philosophy). What you seem to be saying is that we should look at the universe as some sort of Rube Goldberg device and try not to think about it too much.

When a human engineer designs a system (ANY system, from particle accelerators to rabbit snares) she does so in the most efficient way possible. It is a natural human trait to look at systems and wonder if they can be improved or redesigned for better efficiency. Wondering why God didn’t do so is perfectly reasonable, especially give the far greater abilities ascribed to God. 

I think that your ‘overabundance of goodness’ point is woefully misplaced, as (from the POV of human beings) there does not seem to be such an overabundance - but that gets into the Argument From Evil, which is another topic.

But good job sneaking in a comparison with the Holocaust.

Boru

(August 16, 2020 at 12:41 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(August 16, 2020 at 12:12 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: And from the ground. A non-sessile plant could do better, moving when the resources were depleted.

My assumption would be that a plant which moves requires more (or different) nutrients than a plant which doesn't. Because organisms use what they use, in order to be what they are, and do what they do. Thus why a plant is constrained in its form by it's use of solar energy and we aren't.

Waste exists because there aren't deposits of pure carbon or glucose around. Nutrients are found alongside other substances. And it makes sense for digestive system to parse apart food, keep what it needs, and leave behind what it doesn't.

Perhaps a better criticisms would be why God didn't put easily accessible deposits of every nutrient around. But then again, it seems easier to just eat a fruit with potassium, than to go hunt for potassium, sodium and glucose deposits individually. Not to mention the dose in just a spoonful of something like potassium probably far exceeds your needs anyway (I don't actually know).

Eating a fruit and discarding what's not needed seems far more reasonable to me.

You do keep trying, I'll give you that.

(August 16, 2020 at 12:45 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: When a human engineer designs a system (ANY system, from particle accelerators to rabbit snares) she does so in the most efficient way possible. It is a natural human trait to look at systems and wonder if they can be improved or redesigned for better efficiency. Wondering why God didn’t do so is perfectly reasonable, especially give the far greater abilities ascribed to God. 

As an example, what's one improvement you would make?