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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 8:14 am
(This post was last modified: June 5, 2022 at 8:18 am by The Grand Nudger.)
That is not, in fact, something that all belief systems have in common, nor is it true that abrahamic faith does not judge it's god. It does, and it judges that god to be good.
Others see that, and disagree. Just like we can disagree about disease being evil. I don't think disease is evil because it negatively impacts wellbeing. Disease is not a moral agent, it cannot be evil even if it does negatively impact wellbeing. I do think it's evil for a moral agent to inflict disease, ofc. Do gods qualify as moral agents?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 8:23 am
(June 5, 2022 at 8:08 am)Klorophyll Wrote: 1/God doesn't owe anyone life to begin with. How do you know?
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 8:49 am
(This post was last modified: June 5, 2022 at 9:00 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Yet another judgement. The question of a gods moral duties. Cutting all the way to the end, if the idea is to remove gods moral responsibility in any real or conceivable scenario of moral import, so as to defend god from any moral objections...we'll have rendered god both morally incompetent, and morally irrelevant - in the process. Gods become very much like a disease, in that event. Just a thing that harms but cannot be evil because it is not responsible for anything. Remarkably close to my own position on the matter. Are gods truly evil, no more so than a wave or a volcano or vanilla ice cream, and for the same reason in all four cases.
Yet another fun strategy. Agree, lay out the consequences of what's being agreed to, and point out corresponding or adjacent heretical beliefs.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 8:55 am
(June 5, 2022 at 8:23 am)Deesse23 Wrote: (June 5, 2022 at 8:08 am)Klorophyll Wrote: 1/God doesn't owe anyone life to begin with. How do you know?
There is no necessary reason for God to create us. We could have not existed.
Quote: (June 5, 2022 at 8:14 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That is not, in fact, something that all belief systems have in common, nor is it true that abrahamic faith does not judge it's god. It does, and it judges that god to be good.
Others see that, and disagree. Just like we can disagree about disease being evil. I don't think disease is evil because it negatively impacts wellbeing. Disease is not a moral agent, it cannot be evil even if it does negatively impact wellbeing. I do think it's evil for a moral agent to inflict disease, ofc. Do gods qualify as moral agents?
It depends on what you mean by judge.. Religions like christianity or islam come in the form of articles of faith. A set of definitions and imperatives about what God is and what He wants us to do, etc. God purportedly revealed Himself and his character to us. Many would argue that this saves us the trouble of speculating about His character.
Now about disease. Does God permit disease in this world? Yes. And there are religous reasons that are proposed for that, like disease being a divine test of whether one's faith is genuine, etc. In fact, many people become religious after the horrible experience of some life-threatening illness or accident. This suggests there is a strong correlation between experiencing hardships and religiosity.
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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 9:01 am
(June 5, 2022 at 8:55 am)Klorophyll Wrote: (June 5, 2022 at 8:23 am)Deesse23 Wrote: How do you know? There is no necessary reason for God to create us. We could have not existed. I asked you how you know, and you just re-stated your claim.
Want to try again? Especially in the light of the fact that you cant know if your god is good or bad. How do you know it was not necessary for your god to create us because he is good (or bad)? How did you rule out that being good (or bad) does not include the necessity to create humans?
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 9:05 am
(June 5, 2022 at 8:55 am)Klorophyll Wrote: Now about disease. Does God permit disease in this world? Yes. And there are religous reasons that are proposed for that, like disease being a divine test of whether one's faith is genuine, etc. Why do babies have cancer, etc?
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 9:08 am
(This post was last modified: June 5, 2022 at 9:09 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 5, 2022 at 8:55 am)Klorophyll Wrote: It depends on what you mean by judge.. Religions like christianity or islam come in the form of articles of faith. A set of definitions and imperatives about what God is and what He wants us to do, etc. God purportedly revealed Himself and his character to us. Many would argue that this saves us the trouble of speculating about His character. All religions are described by articles of faith. You'll have to pick a lane at some point though. We either can or can't know whether a god is good or evil. Speculation, revelation, observation... it doesn't really matter which vehicle.
Quote:Now about disease. Does God permit disease in this world? Yes. And there are religous reasons that are proposed for that, like disease being a divine test of whether one's faith is genuine, etc. In fact, many people become religious after the horrible experience of some life-threatening illness or accident. This suggests there is a strong correlation between experiencing hardships and religiosity.
There may be a correlation between hardship and religiosity - but if god is inflicting hardship to increase religiosity, that would be another example of potential immorality. Assuming, ofc, god actually is a competent moral agent and can be morally responsible for anything, after all. Unlike waves, volcanos, or ice cream.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 11:20 am
(June 5, 2022 at 8:08 am)Klorophyll Wrote: That' a fair objection. But you are slightly misrepresenting the theist's position. In fact, we don't judge God at all.
Not true. Theists constantly tell us that god is good, and that he is the fount of morality, blahblahblah. "God is good, all the time", etc.
All those statements are judgements. And they're all vapid, according to your logic. For all you know, you are worshipping a demon, apparently.
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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 4:00 pm
Quote:That' a fair objection. But you are slightly misrepresenting the theist's position. In fact, we don't judge God at all.
Quote:“If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” (Quran, 3:31)
Not a judgment?
Quote:Mark 10:18 ESV / 92 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Not a judgment?
Quote:"The LORD is good, A stronghold in the day of trouble, And He knows those who take refuge in Him."
Mark 10:18
Not a judgment?
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
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“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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RE: Fallacies & Strategies
June 5, 2022 at 5:22 pm
(June 5, 2022 at 9:08 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: (June 5, 2022 at 8:55 am)Klorophyll Wrote: It depends on what you mean by judge.. Religions like christianity or islam come in the form of articles of faith. A set of definitions and imperatives about what God is and what He wants us to do, etc. God purportedly revealed Himself and his character to us. Many would argue that this saves us the trouble of speculating about His character. All religions are described by articles of faith. You'll have to pick a lane at some point though. We either can or can't know whether a god is good or evil. Speculation, revelation, observation... it doesn't really matter which vehicle.
Quote:Now about disease. Does God permit disease in this world? Yes. And there are religous reasons that are proposed for that, like disease being a divine test of whether one's faith is genuine, etc. In fact, many people become religious after the horrible experience of some life-threatening illness or accident. This suggests there is a strong correlation between experiencing hardships and religiosity.
There may be a correlation between hardship and religiosity - but if god is inflicting hardship to increase religiosity, that would be another example of potential immorality. Assuming, ofc, god actually is a competent moral agent and can be morally responsible for anything, after all. Unlike waves, volcanos, or ice cream. So God needlessly causes suffering because apparently being a god isn't enough to get people to worship him? And what would cause less conusion then vaguely revealing itself through a collection of stories indistinguishable from myths and forces indistinguishable from the mundane actually making it clear what it wants.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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