Quote:The ten commandments are part of the old law. If I love God and my neighbor I will follow the ten commandments.

Like i said you pick and choose

Quote:Not loving God and/or our neighbor.

A belief you don't really hold to.

(July 18, 2023 at 3:48 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 18, 2023 at 3:26 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: But you are under *some* of the OT law, right. 
In Matthew, Jesus told the young man who asked him what he had to do to gain eternal life. 
"Keep the commandments". 
He also never said anything about a "new law" or new covenant.
In fact he specifically said there would be no new covenant.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Matthew 5:17-18 Paul made up the "new covenant".

You cherry pick what you want from the OT, and what you don't. 

There were no "homosexuals" in the OT. The concept (of orientation) didn't arise until the 19th Century. 
What you're doing has a name. You're committing "Presentism". It's a "thing" in History. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism..._analysis)

Jesus fulfilled the law, which no one else could do. The whole idea of the old law was to demonstrate that we were unable to follow it. How many fathers killed their sons for being disobedient?  The law demonstrated that we needed a savior. Jesus summed up the law with two commandments. "love God above all and love your neighbor as yourself".

Nope. All total bullshit. The role of the Jewish Messiah was NEVER to be a savior. 
Jesus never claimed to "fulfill" anything. All that arose in Christian history FAR FAR later. 
The Jews needed no savior. They STILL do not claim to need one. It's simply NEVER been a part of the Jewish religion. 
They had all the justification and purification they needed in their temple sacrifice system.
The Messiah was to restore the kingdom of Israel. Jesus failed to get the job done. 
Also his disciples thought that also. In Acts they ask him, 
"Wilt thou O Lord at this time restore the kingdom to Israel" ?
You apparently never studied History. 
You really ought to.
Jesus SAID he came to change nothing.
But you're fully indoctrinated in the Christian lies and bs about how their cult started.

For at least 100 years, until the late 1st Century, Christians were Jews. The High Priest issued a proclamation (The Benedictions against the "minim" members of The Way sect, mentioned in the Gospel of John) ... the Expulsion Curses, demanding the Christians (the Way sect of Judaism) stay away from the synagogues. In the year 400 (!!!) the Archbishop of Constantinople (John Chrysostom) told HIS congregation to stop going to the synagogue in his Christmas sermon.

(July 18, 2023 at 4:14 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:

(July 18, 2023 at 3:11 pm)Lek Wrote: Pretty clear. He's telling the Israelites to put practicing homosexual men to death. Why? I'm don't know. I'm not under the old testament law and I certainly don't want to execute homosexuals for sleeping together. I don't even want to make it illegal. We can't legislate morality.

Morality? You think homosexuality is immoral?

I'm torn. As for now I'll leave that up to the individual and God. I can't make that judgement.

(July 18, 2023 at 4:38 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(July 18, 2023 at 3:48 pm)Lek Wrote: Jesus fulfilled the law, which no one else could do. The whole idea of the old law was to demonstrate that we were unable to follow it. How many fathers killed their sons for being disobedient?  The law demonstrated that we needed a savior. Jesus summed up the law with two commandments. "love God above all and love your neighbor as yourself".

Nope. All total bullshit. The role of the Jewish Messiah was NEVER to be a savior. 
Jesus never claimed to "fulfill" anything. All that arose in Christian history FAR FAR later. 
The Jews needed no savior. They STILL do not claim to need one. It's simply NEVER been a part of the Jewish religion. 
The Messiah was to restore the kingdom of Israel. Jesus failed to get the job done. 
Also his disciples thought that also. In Acts they ask him, 
"Wilt thou O Lord at this time restore the kingdom to Israel" ?
You apparently never studied History. 
You really ought to.
Jesus SAID he came to change nothing.

For at least 100 years, until the late 1st Century, Christians were Jews. The High Priest issued a proclamation (The Benedictions against the members of The Way sect, mentioned in the Gospel of John) ... the Expulsion Curses, demanding the Christians (the Way sect of Judaism) stay away from the synagogues. In the year 400 (!!!) the Archbishop of Constantinople (John Chrysostom) told HIS congregation to stop going to the synagogue in his Christmas sermon.

Actually, Jesus did say he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

(July 18, 2023 at 4:45 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 18, 2023 at 4:38 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Nope. All total bullshit. The role of the Jewish Messiah was NEVER to be a savior. 
Jesus never claimed to "fulfill" anything. All that arose in Christian history FAR FAR later. 
The Jews needed no savior. They STILL do not claim to need one. It's simply NEVER been a part of the Jewish religion. 
The Messiah was to restore the kingdom of Israel. Jesus failed to get the job done. 
Also his disciples thought that also. In Acts they ask him, 
"Wilt thou O Lord at this time restore the kingdom to Israel" ?
You apparently never studied History. 
You really ought to.
Jesus SAID he came to change nothing.

For at least 100 years, until the late 1st Century, Christians were Jews. The High Priest issued a proclamation (The Benedictions against the members of The Way sect, mentioned in the Gospel of John) ... the Expulsion Curses, demanding the Christians (the Way sect of Judaism) stay away from the synagogues. In the year 400 (!!!) the Archbishop of Constantinople (John Chrysostom) told HIS congregation to stop going to the synagogue in his Christmas sermon.

Actually, Jesus did say he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

It's not one of the "authentic" sayings the Jesus Seminar accepts as a real saying. 
None of the other gospels have it. You have no evidence he actually said anything. 
It's obviously a "post-dictum" put in later after the theology had decades if not centuries to develop. 
You should learn how to interpret this literature and be sensitive to highly developed theology. The Way sect had no such concept.
First you have to learn the ACTUAL developmental steps and history of when and how, over the decades and centuries, the various concepts developed.
You can read the proceedings of all the Councils on Fordham University's website. You can actually watch as they cooked up Christianity from scratch.

"Fulfilling" the prophets is not a Hebrew/Jewish concept. In fact "prophesy as prediction" was specifically forbidden in Hebrew culture.
The ancient role of a prophet in Hebrew culture was to interpret the words or will of their god to the people OF THEIR OWN DAY. NOT to predict the future. (That's Hollywood's idea of the role of a prophet). So you often hear fundies talking about "prophesy", and how various prophesies were a 'foretelling", or prediction of the future, and indeed they count them up as "proof" that Jebus or whatever HAS to be true, as the "prophecy" came true.

In fact Deuteronomy forbade fortune telling omen reading and divination, so we know it was an abomination to even think in these terms for many/most centuries in Hebrew culture. However, with the rise of Apocalypticism, around the turn of the millennium, this changed somewhat, and is evidenced in many Christian writings, including the gospels, as they adopted the notions absent in ancient Israel, but coming into popular view with the Essenes. In terms of Hebrew culture, and the "telling of or prediction of" the future, was unknown, and forbidden, and not at ALL a view of the major prophets themselves. However in the the new view, certain "hidden meanings" or "pesherim" began to be looked for, in the practice of Midrash. The name for this is called "pesher", (or seeking a "hidden meaning"), which was not even known to the original speaker/writer, but only "revealed" later to certain believers. Originally, the (plural) "pesherim" were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness, (the leader of the Essenes), and the idea was first found and fully understood after scholars read the Dead Sea scrolls, and was a sub category of "Midrash", (or study of the texts).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash
Thus we see that "prophesy" as fortune telling as began to be practiced in Judaism around the First Century, (and picked up by Christians and the gospel writers), really was a very late invention and never a classical part of Hebrew scripture, or understanding, either interpretation, or intention, and certainly was not the function of the ancient office of "prophet", in Hebrew culture, who was to be a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day, and not Madame Zelda with her crystal ball.

"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft" 
Deuteronomy 18:10

(July 18, 2023 at 5:05 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(July 18, 2023 at 4:45 pm)Lek Wrote: Actually, Jesus did say he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

It's not one of the "authentic" sayings the Jesus Seminar accepts as a real saying. 
None of the other gospels have it. You have no evidence he actually said anything. 
It's obviously a "post-dictum" put in later after the theology had decades if not centuries to develop. 
You should learn how to interpret this literature and be sensitive to highly developed theology. The Way sect had no such concept.
First you have to learn the ACTUAL developmental steps and history of when and how, over the decades and centuries, the various concepts developed.
You can read the proceedings of all the Councils on Fordham University's website. You can actually watch as they cooked up Christianity from scratch.

"Fulfilling" the prophets is not a Hebrew/Jewish concept. In fact "prophesy as prediction" was specifically forbidden in Hebrew culture.
The ancient role of a prophet in Hebrew culture was to interpret the words or will of their god to the people OF THEIR OWN DAY. NOT to predict the future. (That's Hollywood's idea of the role of a prophet). So you often hear fundies talking about "prophesy", and how various prophesies were a 'foretelling", or prediction of the future, and indeed they count them up as "proof" that Jebus or whatever HAS to be true, as the "prophecy" came true.

In fact Deuteronomy forbade fortune telling omen reading and divination, so we know it was an abomination to even think in these terms for many/most centuries in Hebrew culture. However, with the rise of Apocalypticism, around the turn of the millennium, this changed somewhat, and is evidenced in many Christian writings, including the gospels, as they adopted the notions absent in ancient Israel, but coming into popular view with the Essenes. In terms of Hebrew culture, and the "telling of or prediction of" the future, was unknown, and forbidden, and not at ALL a view of the major prophets themselves. However in the the new view, certain "hidden meanings" or "pesherim" began to be looked for, in the practice of Midrash. The name for this is called "pesher", (or seeking a "hidden meaning"), which was not even known to the original speaker/writer, but only "revealed" later to certain believers. Originally, the (plural) "pesherim" were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness, (the leader of the Essenes), and the idea was first found and fully understood after scholars read the Dead Sea scrolls, and was a sub category of "Midrash", (or study of the texts).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash
Thus we see that "prophesy" as fortune telling as began to be practiced in Judaism around the First Century, (and picked up by Christians and the gospel writers), really was a very late invention and never a classical part of Hebrew scripture, or understanding, either interpretation, or intention, and certainly was not the function of the ancient office of "prophet", in Hebrew culture, who was to be a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day, and not Madame Zelda with her crystal ball.

"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft" 
Deuteronomy 18:10

The opinion of the Jesus Seminar is one of many opinions put forth by biblical scholars. You can choose to accept their opinion if you like, but they are definitely not authoritative. Actually, nobody alive was there with Jesus, so nobody can "prove" what he said.

Excuses Excuses 

(July 18, 2023 at 3:42 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 18, 2023 at 3:30 pm)Angrboda Wrote: So God changed his mind about killing f**gots?

I wasn't there at the time.

You don't need to have been there.  It's a simple yes or no.  Either God didn't change his mind, and it's still okay to kill homosexuals, or he did change his mind.

(July 18, 2023 at 6:44 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(July 18, 2023 at 3:42 pm)Lek Wrote: I wasn't there at the time.

You don't need to have been there.  It's a simple yes or no.  Either God didn't change his mind, and it's still okay to kill homosexuals, or he did change his mind.

I thought that god was infallible?