(September 10, 2023 at 7:53 am)no one Wrote: I know I am unattactive. That I do not possess a single redeeming quality. There isn't anything I bring to the table, that I make everything worse.

Not sure if serious or just being facetious. Either way, assuming you're serious, you being attractive or not is for other people to decide. You are not necessarily the final arbiter of all truths regarding yourself.

And this is something I want to pound into people like FF's heads since that Black Pill thread. Failing to land a romantic/sexual relationship with someone is because of lack of skills, lack of opportunity, lack of self-confidence, lack of self-esteem, fear of rejection, being too safe, being too focused on specific types of people that aren't compatible with you, etc. Many reasons. Not having exceptionally good looks, however, is not generally one of them.

Sure, if you are an exceptionally good looking man, you will probably have far more sex and flings than your typical guy. And maybe far more success in general. But being average looking isn't the curse that Black Pillers make it out to be. The real curse is what's often associated with having average looks: the stuff I mentioned in my previous paragraph. Yes, it's partly luck, because you have to put yourself out there and be in the right places at the right time. And you have to get out of your comfort zone, which can be quite stressful. But if you want a relationship, and especially if you're a guy, you have to do some work on yourself and how you interact with other people. I'm not even talking just about the stereotypical incels at this point.

(September 10, 2023 at 10:23 am)Angrboda Wrote:

(September 10, 2023 at 9:27 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Iirc, there was an earlier delineation of the types of loneliness.  And a comparison to isolation and social ostracisation.

From my limited reading, for most people, loneliness will occur unless: they have at least one close friend, at least one romantic/sexual partner, feel they belong in wider society, and have regular positive social interactions.  All those criteria must be met.  For incels, the first two and especially the second, are the ones missing.  They are the most important as far as a sort of Maslow hierarchy of needs goes.

That's a crock of shit.

Can you provide more detail, please? As it stands this is a very unhelpful response.

(September 10, 2023 at 2:01 pm)GrandizerII Wrote:

(September 10, 2023 at 7:53 am)no one Wrote: I know I am unattactive. That I do not possess a single redeeming quality. There isn't anything I bring to the table, that I make everything worse.

Not sure if serious or just being facetious. Either way, assuming you're serious, you being attractive or not is for other people to decide. You are not necessarily the final arbiter of all truths regarding yourself.

And this is something I want to pound into people like FF's heads since that Black Pill thread. Failing to land a romantic/sexual relationship with someone is because of lack of skills, lack of opportunity, lack of self-confidence, lack of self-esteem, fear of rejection, being too safe, being too focused on specific types of people that aren't compatible with you, etc. Many reasons. Not having exceptionally good looks, however, is not generally one of them.

Sure, if you are an exceptionally good looking man, you will probably have far more sex and flings than your typical guy. And maybe far more success in general. But being average looking isn't the curse that Black Pillers make it out to be. The real curse is what's often associated with having average looks: the stuff I mentioned in my previous paragraph. Yes, it's partly luck, because you have to put yourself out there and be in the right places at the right time. And you have to get out of your comfort zone, which can be quite stressful. But if you want a relationship, and especially if you're a guy, you have to do some work on yourself and how you interact with other people. I'm not even talking just about the stereotypical incels at this point.

The majority of my posts have been about ugly people,not average looking people. The kind of people who have very good interaction skills, put themselves out a lot, but are told they are ugly by people. Perhaps that's the disconnect here.

I'd like to query a number of points you've raised:
A) Lack of skills? How would this be assessed, and what does this mean exactly?

B) Luck and right place right time? Do you think it could be,then, that some people have all the right skills and attitude and looks etc, but simply never be at the right place and right time? How would this be measured? How would someone know it was a bad luck issue and not a bad looks issue? And how could this be solved?

C) Focused on peoplenot compatible with you? What does this mean, exactly? People seem to have little to no control over who they find attractive, so how does this get changed?

D) What advice would you give someone who was confident, social adept, wasn't focused on a specific type, and was highly socially active, yet had been repeatedly rejected and told they were physically ugly?

(September 10, 2023 at 2:54 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(September 10, 2023 at 2:01 pm)GrandizerII Wrote: Not sure if serious or just being facetious. Either way, assuming you're serious, you being attractive or not is for other people to decide. You are not necessarily the final arbiter of all truths regarding yourself.

And this is something I want to pound into people like FF's heads since that Black Pill thread. Failing to land a romantic/sexual relationship with someone is because of lack of skills, lack of opportunity, lack of self-confidence, lack of self-esteem, fear of rejection, being too safe, being too focused on specific types of people that aren't compatible with you, etc. Many reasons. Not having exceptionally good looks, however, is not generally one of them.

Sure, if you are an exceptionally good looking man, you will probably have far more sex and flings than your typical guy. And maybe far more success in general. But being average looking isn't the curse that Black Pillers make it out to be. The real curse is what's often associated with having average looks: the stuff I mentioned in my previous paragraph. Yes, it's partly luck, because you have to put yourself out there and be in the right places at the right time. And you have to get out of your comfort zone, which can be quite stressful. But if you want a relationship, and especially if you're a guy, you have to do some work on yourself and how you interact with other people. I'm not even talking just about the stereotypical incels at this point.

The majority of my posts have been about ugly people,not average looking people.  The kind of people who have very good interaction skills, put themselves out a lot, but are told they are ugly by people.  Perhaps that's the disconnect here.

My use of the word "average" is intentional. I don't believe in the "ugly person dilemma" when it comes to relationships.

But let's have some concrete examples. Can you give examples of the type of people you're talking about? I mean celeb examples. Is Steve Buscemi ugly? Is Gladys Berejiklian ugly (you can find images of her on Google)?

Concrete examples.

OK, someone who had been repeatedly told they were ugly by many people, and badly treated by people because of how they looked. Someone who had been spat on by someone in the street for being ugly. That level of ugly.

I'm assuming you've seen an ugly man at some point. Someone who you and your partner and friends acknowledged was ugly, laughed about etc.

Celebs are somewhat outliers for many reasons, so best to focus on ordinary people.

I typed ugly people into Google and got various images. This is a typical example, and I expect most would acknowledge he was at least below average looking if not ugly:



Lets imagine rhat unlike a celebrity he's 5'4, low income, average IQ, average personality, somewhat autistic, average social skills. I'd say he was going to really struggle in dating.

True ugliness tends to be the exception, not the rule. Personal perception plays a minor role, but in the case of these incels I can probably state with a high degree of certainty that they aren't remotely identifiable as objectively ugly.

I agree. Most incel and black pillers, even by their own admission, are mentalcels not truecels.

(September 10, 2023 at 2:54 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: A) Lack of skills?  How would this be assessed, and what does this mean exactly?

Lack of social skills basically.

Examples: Not knowing how to communicate properly with people. Not listening. Only talking about themselves. Not paying attention to certain cues. Not knowing how to communicate without coming off as creepy. And so on.

Or maybe they have great social skills generally, but freeze up and panic when talking to women they find attractive.

Quote:B) Luck and right place right time?  Do you think it could be,then, that some people have all the right skills and attitude and looks etc, but simply never be at the right place and right time?  How would this be measured? How would someone know it was a bad luck issue and not a bad looks issue? And how could this be solved?

Some people are more dedicated than others to meet new people, find prospective dates, go to social parties regularly, and so on. In a somewhat ironic sense, they are more desperate for connections or relationships (but they alleviate that in fairly productive ways). Contrast this with people who are also desperate for relationships, but won't put themselves out there.

It's about increasing the odds of landing a relationship.

Quote:C) Focused on peoplenot compatible with you?  What does this mean, exactly?  People seem to have little to no control over who they find attractive, so how does this get changed?

I don't claim to know how this can be changed. Just noting my observations.

Compatible with you just means you work best with them and they work best with you, you both are attracted to each other in some meaningful way to the point that you're both mutually willing to spend a long time together and do all sorts of things together. And you both want the same kind of connection together:

Often times though, guys tend to go for the types of girls who don't match them in that way, and then this thing called "friend zone" happens.

Quote:D) What advice would you give someone who was confident, social adept, wasn't focused on a specific type, and was highly socially active, yet had been repeatedly rejected and told they were physically ugly?

The same advice I've been giving this whole time. You may have been bullied and teased for your looks, but it doesn't mean everyone finds you ugly. It doesn't mean you have no hope of being romantically/sexually involved with a human being who is willing to share their love with you and be intimate with you. It's the insistence that it must be your looks that is hindering you from getting into a relationship with someone, not your looks themselves.

By the way, victims of bullying tend to be seen as easy targets for bullying, and that is the main reason they unfortunately get bullied. Even here, ugliness isn't the main reason. But bullies will use all sorts of hurtful words just to hurt you. Again, here it's deeper than looks.

And there are nasty people in the adult world as well. But none of them need to dictate for you whether you have any hope of someone being attracted to you.