(February 5, 2012 at 4:25 am)brotherlylove Wrote: If you want to backtrack from the conversation, that is up to you, just admit to it and don't do it under false pretenses.

You lied. Why would I bother talking to a liar who's trying to sell Jesus?

You're disgusting. You've never going to sell Jesus to anyone by lying to them.

Come back after you learn to tell the truth. But you'll probably be an atheist by then.

(February 5, 2012 at 12:12 pm)Abracadabra Wrote: Come back after you learn to tell the truth. But you'll probably be an atheist by then.

(February 4, 2012 at 6:13 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: Hey downbeatplumb Do you think Jesus existed? If so, what do you think of Him?

I think that there is a good chance that there was a physical jesus despite the compltete lack of contempoary evidence and my reasoning goes thus.

If there was a cult leader who was killed as a common criminal his followers would make up all sorts of silly shit to justify this outcome.
The story of the crucifiction and resurrection seem to me to be the rabid claims of desperate people trying to justify why they followed the person that they did.

So I see him as a kind of David Koresh or Charles Manson character who seperated people from there families and caused trouble.

You only have to look at the fable of jesus and the money lenders,jesus would not have been allowed to interupt the workings of money lenders on his own, money lenders have always had plenty of protection, a violent mob would have been required.
trouble maker.

(February 5, 2012 at 4:25 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Hey Sciwoman I don't recall saying anything like that. I am simply interested to find out what went wrong. Specifically, why you stopped loving Jesus Christ and then rejected Him. What was it that changed your mind and heart?

See, there it is, the arrogance. You automatically assume something was wrong with me (and others who have made the same journey). My journey started when I discovered that I had been lied to about a certain issue (what it was doesn't really matter). It was easy to discover this for myself, once I was convinced to look beyond the haze of rhetoric and dogma. If they were so wrong about that, what else where they wrong about? I took it upon myself to do my own studies and find my own answers. So many people claiming to have THE ANSWER, claims and counter-claims all backed up with scripture. The more I studied, the less sense it all made - contradictory claims, contradictory scriptures, contradictory interpretations. I started out wanting to be a better christian, but ended up becoming an even better person in becoming an atheist.

(February 5, 2012 at 12:12 pm)Abracadabra Wrote:

(February 5, 2012 at 4:25 am)brotherlylove Wrote: If you want to backtrack from the conversation, that is up to you, just admit to it and don't do it under false pretenses.

You lied. Why would I bother talking to a liar who's trying to sell Jesus?

You're disgusting. You've never going to sell Jesus to anyone by lying to them.

Come back after you learn to tell the truth. But you'll probably be an atheist by then.

If it were not for lying, he would not be able to sell Jesus and you would not be able to sell...um....whatever the stuff is that you ramble on about.

(February 5, 2012 at 2:29 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: If it were not for lying, he would not be able to sell Jesus and you would not be able to sell...um....whatever the stuff is that you ramble on about.

I'm not trying to 'sell' anything.

And I'm certainly not going around accusing people of "rejecting" a supposedly egoistical male-chauvinistic demonic invisible God who plays hide and seek and will condemn people to eternal suffering for merely not believing in him.

Brotherly Love- A while back you asked Faith-" Did you ever try what the bible said to do?" You're kidding right? I can answer that loaded question in this way:
No I have never tried to rape anyone.
No I have never tried to sell my daughters into slavery.
No I have never killed all the men, children, women [except for the virgins] of a village.
No I have never agreed to kill one of my chidren on god's command.
No I have never bashed babies heads against rocks.
No I have never commited genocide.
I could go on but I think you may get the message.

Sell it, man! These knuckleheads will buy anything that has the jesus brand name on it.

Quote:Second, the covenants were changed when Jesus fulfilled the mosaic law on the cross. That is what instituted the New Covenant. New Covenant means new laws; it's the law of Christ, not the law of Moses. This is why God said this in Jeremiah 31:31-33

So just for fun and giggles, I'll give you the sacrifice of either human or animals to appease this god, show me in your bible where jesus changed any of the covenants either ethical or ritual. One condition though with your answer, you cannot use any of paul's books.

Because if you were being brutally honest about the matter, you would just come out and say you are a Pauline Christian. And that Paul's words superceeds Jesus'. That when Jesus accended to heaven all what he taught was explained by a man that met a talking donkey along the road.

(February 5, 2012 at 12:12 pm)Abracadabra Wrote:

(February 5, 2012 at 4:25 am)brotherlylove Wrote: If you want to backtrack from the conversation, that is up to you, just admit to it and don't do it under false pretenses.

You lied. Why would I bother talking to a liar who's trying to sell Jesus?

You're disgusting. You've never going to sell Jesus to anyone by lying to them.

Come back after you learn to tell the truth. But you'll probably be an atheist by then.

If you want to dodge the debate, that's up to you. I'll let your accusation that I wasn't seeking God when I explored the claims of Christianity, when seeking God is by definition what I was doing, stand on its own merits.

---

(February 5, 2012 at 1:42 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: I think that there is a good chance that there was a physical jesus despite the compltete lack of contempoary evidence and my reasoning goes thus.

If there was a cult leader who was killed as a common criminal his followers would make up all sorts of silly shit to justify this outcome.
The story of the crucifiction and resurrection seem to me to be the rabid claims of desperate people trying to justify why they followed the person that they did.

So I see him as a kind of David Koresh or Charles Manson character who seperated people from there families and caused trouble.

The problem with this conspiracy theory is that the apostles were all martyred for their faith. Even skeptical historians are pretty much in agreement that the apostles believed that Jesus was raised from the dead.

(February 5, 2012 at 1:42 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: You only have to look at the fable of jesus and the money lenders,jesus would not have been allowed to interupt the workings of money lenders on his own, money lenders have always had plenty of protection, a violent mob would have been required.
trouble maker.

Matthew 4:5

And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.

Matthew 21:46

But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

They probably did have protection, but they wouldn't have dared lay a hand on a prophet of God. The crowd would have torn them to pieces.

---

(February 5, 2012 at 1:48 pm)Sciwoman Wrote: See, there it is, the arrogance. You automatically assume something was wrong with me (and others who have made the same journey). My journey started when I discovered that I had been lied to about a certain issue (what it was doesn't really matter). It was easy to discover this for myself, once I was convinced to look beyond the haze of rhetoric and dogma. If they were so wrong about that, what else where they wrong about? I took it upon myself to do my own studies and find my own answers. So many people claiming to have THE ANSWER, claims and counter-claims all backed up with scripture. The more I studied, the less sense it all made - contradictory claims, contradictory scriptures, contradictory interpretations. I started out wanting to be a better christian, but ended up becoming an even better person in becoming an atheist.

What I assumed was that something must have gone wrong, since you're no longer a Christian and now an atheist. I didn't say this to suggest you are any less than I am. I am sure you have your reasons, which is what I am inquiring about.

Yes, there are definitely a lot of different opinions and interpretations of scripture. However, in Orthodox Christianity, the faith of the early church, there is widespread agreement on the fundemental tenants of Christianity. Most of the disagreement is on fairly trivial matters.

What scripture says is that we live in a fallen world and humanity is generally corrupt. These kinds of disagreements are exactly what you could expect to find given that description of the world. Which leads to my essential question; didn't you love God? I hear this type of story so often from ex-christians. If you knew God then you loved God, yet the stories I hear always amount to something like finding something that seems contradictory in the bible, losing your faith and then abandoning it like you were changing outfits. If you loved God why didn't you give Him the benefit of the doubt?

Did you not see the scripture about trusting God first? The bible isn't always easy to understand, and there are things which appear to be contradictory..when I have found things like that I don't immediately start dousing the bible with lighter fluid..I simply trust God to lead me to the answer and He always does. That's kind of what faith is all about, trusting God first and your finite understanding second..

What contradictions did you get hung up on? What was the initial thing (the lie) that led you to all of this in the first place?

---

(February 5, 2012 at 4:39 pm)SilverFrog Wrote: Brotherly Love- A while back you asked Faith-" Did you ever try what the bible said to do?" You're kidding right? I can answer that loaded question in this way:
No I have never tried to rape anyone.
No I have never tried to sell my daughters into slavery.
No I have never killed all the men, children, women [except for the virgins] of a village.
No I have never agreed to kill one of my chidren on god's command.
No I have never bashed babies heads against rocks.
No I have never commited genocide.
I could go on but I think you may get the message.

Hey Silverfrog I'll be happy to discuss what is or isn't in the bible with you, but you've missed the point. If you want to explore the central claim of Christianity, that Jesus Christ is God and you can know Him personally, logically you would do what the bible says to do to get to know Him, and why would you expect to get results any other way?

---

(February 5, 2012 at 9:57 pm)renew Wrote: So just for fun and giggles, I'll give you the sacrifice of either human or animals to appease this god, show me in your bible where jesus changed any of the covenants either ethical or ritual. One condition though with your answer, you cannot use any of paul's books.

Because if you were being brutally honest about the matter, you would just come out and say you are a Pauline Christian. And that Paul's words superceeds Jesus'. That when Jesus accended to heaven all what he taught was explained by a man that met a talking donkey along the road.

Jeremiah 31:33

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people

Matthew 26:28

For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

This indicates the change of covenants. Here Jesus changed the mosaic laws:

the sabbath

Mark 2:25-28

He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

oaths

Matthew 5:33-38

Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.'

But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.

Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one

Adultery

Matthew 5:27-28

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Love your enemies

Matthew 5:43-45

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Murder

Matthew 5:21-22

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Eye for an eye

Matthew 5:38-39

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Divorce

Matthew 5:31-32

It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Is this enough? The sacrifice I would ask that you make is your pride, that you would humble yourself to ask God for forgiveness .