Quote:To argue for the 'facts' and 'evidence' about god or 9/11 is a misnomer

False analogy Pip,and incorrect use of the word "misnomer".

"god" is a metaphyical idea,unprovable and unfalsifiable. We have no facts about god.

9/11 was a real event,about which we have thousands of facts. From what I can see there is no serious debate about the event. The facts have been clearly and accurately identified and explained by people [all over the world,including in my country ] who actually know what they're talking about.I have no rational reason to reject what so many people from so many areas of expertise have explained.. Not to mention after watching the event live on TV.

Although I was horrified,I was not at all surprised when the towers collapsed. I think that's what a reasonable person would expect if an airliner hit almost any skyscraper built after about 1942. The great strength and stability of skyscrapers is mostly an illusion..


I have no rational reason to ACCEPT the convoluted suppositions and corkscrew logic of a bunch of paranoid autodidacts.

Wrong. We have the scientific method which provides reliable sources of evidence. Honestly, if you want to have beliefs without proof, that's fine. But it's beyond me when people who admit they lack evidence for their beliefs and still try to argue them. It's completely absurd.

You have to try to avoid argument? What the hell are you doing here then? Srsly, all we do is argue here, and that doesn't mean we hate each other.

As for 9/11 there is substantial evidence for that it was a terrorist attack and not an inside job. Adrian has provided a wealth of information, scientific information, not ideas or hearsay which you seem to think everything is. (Do you even know what hearsay is?). If you can't refute the arguments, then yeah, your arguments amount to nothing.

(July 21, 2009 at 9:30 pm)Pippy Wrote: I only wish to have constructive argument.

But that's the point Pippy ... there are two sides to the argument it's true; one side with substance (broadly speaking the official position) and one with none (the 9/11 truthers) so the constructive argument is done. The truthers are simply screaming a shouting and carrying on that it isn't done but that they are doing so doesn't make their POV any less vacuous ... they're just a bunch of headless chickens!

Kyu

Quote:Srsly, all we do is argue here

I will repeat that I don't feel a great need to have arguments that are full of emotional and interpretive material, that can not conclude. It is a waste of time, in my opinion. I will do it, but that is why I am begrudged.

Quote:a wealth of information, scientific information, not ideas or hearsay which you seem to think everything is. (Do you even know what hearsay is?)

Simply, yes. Although I did misuse misnomer, I know what hearsay is. The video that Adrian posted showed the collapse from beginning to end taking 15.something seconds. I have seen other videos that make it look more like 9. Which video is correct? How can we tell? Did Adrian take the video himself? So is it by definition hearsay? That none of us were in Manhattan that morning makes it plausible (although very, very, very unlikely) that the event did not happen at all. We have to be very careful of the truths we accept of things we did not see ourselves, I shouldn't have to explain that to you clear-headed and rational Atheists. So as a skeptic, I remain unsure of anything about the event that I can not corroborate (which is very, very little). But Kyu already said that a skeptic can't be in disagreement with the norm about 9/11. I thought that was kind of one of the points of skepticism. Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.

Quote:there are two sides to the argument it's true; one side with substance (broadly speaking the official position) and one with none (the 9/11 truthers) so the constructive argument is done.

Yes the constructive argument is done, if you have decided that only one side of the argument has substance. But that was your decision, I did not end the constructive debate at the point.

Quote:they're just a bunch of headless chickens!

I see the news media coverage of the event to be more of barnyard animal behavior, but that is the basis of our disagreeing on this issue. I am not here to defend ALL truthers, as I am not here to defend ALL theists. I only advocate people that have no defense, and in the name of factual exactitude. If you guys say things that are incorrect portrayals of reality, and the people you are making untrue statements about are not able to talk back, I will for them. As a truther, I exist, and so far don't fit too many of the pigeon holes you have laid out for ALL truthers...

Talk about something interesting. I don't want to hear about the stupid buildings, it's over done. There is much more to 9/11 than an argument over engineering by non-engineers.

thanks,
-Pip

(July 22, 2009 at 7:30 am)Pippy Wrote: [quote='Kyuuketsuki']there are two sides to the argument it's true; one side with substance (broadly speaking the official position) and one with none (the 9/11 truthers) so the constructive argument is done.

Yes the constructive argument is done, if you have decided that only one side of the argument has substance. But that was your decision, I did not end the constructive debate at the point.

Quote:they're just a bunch of headless chickens!

No, you miss the point ... it wasn't MY DECISION, it's simply that the truthers are full of sh**, they lie about and twist the facts to suit their own warped view of what happened on 911 and YOU are being gullible to believe their cr**!

To choose to be that gullible is YOUR decision.

(July 22, 2009 at 7:30 am)Pippy Wrote: I see the news media coverage of the event to be more of barnyard animal behavior, but that is the basis of our disagreeing on this issue. I am not here to defend ALL truthers, as I am not here to defend ALL theists. I only advocate people that have no defense, and in the name of factual exactitude. If you guys say things that are incorrect portrayals of reality, and the people you are making untrue statements about are not able to talk back, I will for them. As a truther, I exist, and so far don't fit too many of the pigeon holes you have laid out for ALL truthers...

Factual exactitude?

Honestly Pippy ... you wouldn't know factual exactitude if it was a wet kipper being beaten repeatedly around your head!

(July 22, 2009 at 7:30 am)Pippy Wrote: Talk about something interesting. I don't want to hear about the stupid buildings, it's over done. There is much more to 9/11 than an argument over engineering by non-engineers.

Says he conveniently side-stepping the fact that it was people on YOUR side (with your kind of views) that raised the conspiracy theories and that we HAVE been citing the experts.

Kyu

Quote:the truthers are full of sh**, they lie about and twist the facts to suit their own warped view of what happened on 911 and YOU are being gullible to believe their cr**!

I could as easily say that the government report and official story is full of shit. They lie about and twist the fact to suit their own agenda. You are being gullible to believe their crap. There, now who is right and who is wrong. May be we both have a point...

Quote:To choose to be that gullible is YOUR decision.

See, I am not all truthers. I have already said that. I don't represent all truthers, as I don't represent all theists. I could care less what you think of all truthers, or the average truther... You call me gullible, but I have been very clear. That the only thing I stand behind is the only thing I feel provable, that the official investigation is flawed and full of misdirection... I think that is undeniable. The truther movement is also full of misdirection, and flawed, and I don't think it is my job to defend it totality to you.

(July 22, 2009 at 9:11 pm)Pippy Wrote:

Quote:the truthers are full of sh**, they lie about and twist the facts to suit their own warped view of what happened on 911 and YOU are being gullible to believe their cr**!

I could as easily say that the government report and official story is full of shit. They lie about and twist the fact to suit their own agenda. You are being gullible to believe their crap. There, now who is right and who is wrong. May be we both have a point...

And maybe you just want to believe what you want to believe (and being brutally honest you already have a head start in that area and your track record isn't looking good either)!

(July 22, 2009 at 9:11 pm)Pippy Wrote:

Quote:To choose to be that gullible is YOUR decision.

See, I am not all truthers. I have already said that. I don't represent all truthers, as I don't represent all theists. I could care less what you think of all truthers, or the average truther... You call me gullible, but I have been very clear. That the only thing I stand behind is the only thing I feel provable, that the official investigation is flawed and full of misdirection... I think that is undeniable. The truther movement is also full of misdirection, and flawed, and I don't think it is my job to defend it totality to you.

Look ... the "truthers" are liars, they claim no one can verify what happened at the Pentagon yet there are hundreds of people on record as saying they saw the plane, there are emergency service personnel who had to pick up the body parts, there is a perfectly plausible explanation for why the hole in the Pentagon wall was smaller than the planes wings. And that's just the Pentagon. You've been repeatedly told that all the claims of the truthers have been debunked, you've been told why they are inherently flawed yet you continue to claim that there are issues ... people who do things like that are idiots, fuckwits, morons. My opinion of you isn't high as is but I'd genuinely like to believe there is a shred of rationality inside what you call your brain ... please give some evidence it's there!

Kyu

Kyu, I'm being lazy again, but can you tell me what the explanation is for the rather small hole that a jetplane supposedly made when it hit the Pentagon?

Only people that hold the same opinion as you are smart. Only people who hold a different opinion than you are idiots. How does it feel to be the smartest man in the world?

I made and make no statement about the pentagon incident. That you are insulting me for what other truthers said about the pentagon means that you have difficulty telling different people apart. Please only insult me for stupid things I say not for stupid things other people say. Thank you for sharing.

---

Quote:You've been repeatedly told that all the claims of the truthers have been debunked

Oh, I didn't know that you telling me that all claims of truthers having been debunked was a statement with such finality.

(July 23, 2009 at 9:10 pm)Pippy Wrote: How does it feel to be the smartest man in the world?

Oh Oh Oh! I can answer that one!

See, (true story!) I'm one of those people who actually died, physically, on an operating table and was resuscitated minutes later.

When I died, I found myself at the pearly gates with God himself opening them up and welcoming me into his kingdom. This perplexed me as an Atheist and God explained he only allowed the smartest people in heaven. Always did. All religions and holy books are bunk he had nothing to do with.

Cool! Ok, I thought. God then invited me to eat with him! I accepted of course.

He takes me to a little hill where you could sit and see Hell, he quite enjoyed dining there watching Hell and all the damned, and opens a can of tuna and a bag of crackers. 'Odd' I thought about the meal, but WTH, I'm dining with God.

Eating my crackers looking down into Hell, I noticed the inhabitants eating steaks, lobsters, creme' brulee' and the like. God invites me to dine again with him the next day. Can of tuna and crackers are on the menu again.

This goes on for three days in a row, us eating tuna and crackers and the denizens of Hell dining on steaks and lobsters, when I couldn't take it anymore and had to ask.

"God, why is it we eat tuna and crackers and they eat steaks and lobsters with all the trimmings?"

God replies, "It ain't worth all the trouble of cooking just for the two of us."


Then I was resuscitated and still don't remember any of that.

Point is, it felt lonely.