OK, take two.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Back problems are not due to a poor design, they are due to a lack of exercise, sedentary lifestyles, poor posture, abuse and sometimes poor genetics. It is actually darwinian theory which led to a host of harmful back treatmet techniques based on the idea that we used to be on all fours, which today have been debunked and replaced by new models that are in many ways completely opposite to that paradigm.

I am amazed that any medical person was stupid enough to design back treatment around the notion that we used to be four-legged. That's evidence that people can be stupid, not that evolution is wrong. In no way, shape, or form does having quadrapedal ancestors suggest anything about how back problems should be treated. Or is this another case of something done for an entirely different reason now being blamed on acceptance of evolution?

And: http://www.cancertherapyblog.com/cancer-...sceptible/

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Darwinist David Shuman said:

‘… no question [that] … the human back, given proper care and rightly understood, is an astonishingly effective mechanism. As much as the more frequently lauded human brain, the human back is the hallmark of our true nobility and a major factor in the … supremacy of … man.’21

They conclude that:

‘… given proper care, a fair shake, and just a little understanding, your back will take on any job you ask of it … . When it fails, in practically all of the more severe cases the failure is due to some sort of weakness

this "truly marvelous hunk of machinery, an amazingly durable arrangement ready to serve the purposes of a ditch digger or a banker, a prizefighter or a stenographer, equally well’ requires only regular maintenance"

And as the article I linked above shows, vertebral fractures are common in human skeletons throughout history and prehistory, no matter the active lifestyle, in comparison to apes. Our vertebra are larger and more porous to better absorb the shock of walking on two feet. In evolution, tradeoffs are inevitable, that same feature makes us more vulnerable to vertebral fractures, especially if we suffer some bone loss, as often happens in old age. I'm not saying it's not marvelous. I couldn't make one. But it's far from perfect.

Rather than paste a bunch of things, I'll address your concerns about the pharynx with this article: http://creation.com/is-the-human-pharynx...y-designed

Retina: http://www.trueorigin.org/retina.asp

If you're too biased to look at them, that's your issue.[/quote]

I was going to read those, but I hate to reward someone who is trying to manipulate me.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: As I already explained, I was willing to incorpate evolution and an old age of the earth into my faith but after investigating, I found the evidence sorely lacking and changed my view. It's bad science to believe whatever scientists tell you is true.

It's not science at all. The science part comes before the scientists share their findings.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: It's bad science to apply your skepticism to everything except your own views.

I'm not doing science. I'm using what poor skills I have to evaluate as much as I can fairly in the limited time available to me. I accept all scientific conclusions that seem to me to be on solid footing tentatively, in the understanding that new evidence may come along that will need to be taken into account. I don't believe everything someone says just because they're wearing a white coat, I know scientists are sometimes guilty of biasing their findings by cherry-picking, and that a certain percentage of studies will be wrong just because they actually fall into that plus or minus 5% margin of error that many experiments of a statistical nature have to allow for.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: I have found inaccurate statements on both sides of the argument. I'll give you a logic puzzle

atheists hate anything that advocates for creationism

A lot of atheists could care less. Atheism is not synonymous with interested in science. And 'hate' is a strong word. 'Exasperated' would be a better description of how I feel. I feel similarly about promotions of communism. Bless their hearts, the poor things mean well but the economics just doesn't work when scaled up above a tribal level.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: creationist websites advocate for creationism

Yep.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: atheists hate creationist websites

Well, I suppose they keep biologists on their toes by constantly waiting for any sign of weakness to jump on. I suspect they do a good job of convincing people who bounce back and forth from them to science sites that creationism is a sucker bet. On whole, I think they perform a valuable service, better they should have their views out in the open where we can all discuss it and let people make up their own minds.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Are you honestly going to say that every creationist website is just a bunch of deliberate lies? Do you have any idea what a ridiculous statement that is?

I'm not sure it is more charitable to believe that they're that wrong honestly.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Much like you dismissed over 50 young earth dating methods without looking at them, you will also dismiss evidence of anomalous artifacts and out of place fossils. I could give you hundreds of examples.

You don't have to convince me. You have to convince scientists. Earn your Nobel prize by taking it to the lab. I'm not qualified to judge your evidence. I just note that the people who are qualified to judge it think you're cranks. To spend a bunch of time trying to educate myself on the intricacies of dating methods just so I can evaluate the claims of a guy on the internet doesn't seem wise. There are plenty of scientists in the relevant fields who are Christians but accept the current use of dating methods is legitimate. Presumably they would be open to evidence that supports their relgious beliefs but wouldn't be fooled by bad evidence because they're qualified to evaluate it. Convince them.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: I think it is a conspiracy in that any idea of special creation is universally shunned by the scientific community, even as the evidence mounts.

That the evidence is mounting is what you're trying to prove. You haven't, yet.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: There is more evidence today of special creation than there ever was.

If true, and that amount is actually enough to justify it, the current paradigm will be shifted by the weight of the evidence. If it does, I will think 'Huh, I was sure was wrong about that. Good thing science is self-correcting.' However, I suspect that by 'more evidence', you mean stunts like deliberately using multiple dating methods on the same sample and thinking it proves something when they give different results. That quality of evidence can pile up as high as a mountain without shifting anything.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: And some of the famous and most respected scientists in history were theists.

Sure. And I certainly don't dismiss them because of their theism. It's irrelevant, their science stands or falls entirely on its own merits.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Except the evidence from design.

Y'know, there's a theory that accounts for the appearance of design very well, while also accounting for deficiencies of design, and also useful for making predictions about future discoveries. Nitpicking at evolution won't take it down because you lack a coherent theory that even comes close to being scientifically useful. We're imitating biological evolution in computer programs to get 'designs' that it would take too long to think of on our own, some of which we would arguably never come up with on our own because of our mental biases. Prove intelligent design, then you can claim that it's evidence for something.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Much evidence can be adduced in favor of the Theory of Evolution from Biology, Biogeography, and Paleontology, but I still think that to the unprejudiced the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation.

EJH Cornor, Cambridge
Contemporary Botanical Thought p.61

(on the cambrian explosion)
And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists.

Richard Dawkins - The Blind Watchmaker 1986

This is called quotemining, a technique for misrepresenting people. I haven't read The Blind Watchmaker yet, and I don't need to in order to know that Dawkins doesn't stop with 'It is as though they were just planted there without any evolutionary history.'

And does this mean you think some things are 'planted' with evolutionary history and some are not? Are you trying to use the minor puzzle that distinguishes the Cambiran 'explosion' to discard what has been found in fossil beds that have been more revealing?

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.

Richard Dawkins
The Blind Watchmaker p.1

Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed but rather evolved.

Francis Crick Nobel Laureate
What Mad Pursuit p.138 1988

That is true. Creationists are constantly looking for a slip of the tongue, so poetic language about design must be curbed because there are so many people out there that equate 'designed by the unconscious process of evolution' with 'designed by a supernatural being' that you can't leave the 'by the unconscious process of evolution' part off if you don't want some yahoo taking your words and trying to imply you think there's a problem with evolution as an explanation for speciation.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Regardless of whatever raw data you have, the interpretation of that data is philosophical.

Yeah, the philosophy is 'go with what works'. I'm fine with that. It's given us a lot.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: The evidence is overwhelmingly faulty, but that is all that overwhelming about it. There is more evidence for a young earth than an old one. Ask yourself why you find blood cells and muscle tissue in dinosaur fossils, or why all fossils contain carbon 14 when that should be long, long gone after millions of years.

Ask yourself why you are so quick to jump on anything that suggests that just maybe, there might be something to your odd claims. The jury is still out on the blood cells, but the muscle tissue was fossilized, just in an odd way...still made of minerals, my friend. Carbon 14 has a half-life of less than 6,000 years, and isn't useful for dating organisms dead more than 50,000 to 80,000 years old (conditions may allow reasonably accurate dating of some samples on the older end of the range). Carbon 14 dating is the most confirmed radiometric dating technique because it's range falls within historical times and the results can be calibrated on things we know the age of with certainty. Beats me about why Carbon 14 is detectable in stuff more than 30 million years old. I don't assume a global flood isthe only possible explanation. Do you?

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: They would have a lot in common with evolutionists then, who keep jumping the gun on finding the "missing link", spreading the story to all of the newspapers, and then having the sad thing debunked a few months later.

History buff, eh? Those were wild and wooly days, for sure.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: The difference between you and me is, you abandoned God and bought the story the world sold you. You put down the truth for a pacifier. I came out of the world because I love the one who made it. It's not a dichotomy of science and religion, that doesn't even matter. What matters is what the truth is. You think what man says means something, but God says the thoughts of men are futile. You think the world is wise, God says the wisdom of the world is foolishness. You think what man does is great, but God says what man highly exalts God finds to be an abomination. You think you have a way that works, but scripture says there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end its way is death.

This is just preaching.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: http://www.discovery.org/a/2640

This is not, and I stand corrected. I will even resist carping on Behe.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: How can you say something like this and avoid the label of pathological bias?

Give me one example of irreducible complexity that hasn't been refuted and I will concede the point.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Information in DNA

Um, evolution kinda depends on that. Darwin didn't even know about the stuff, but knew there had to be some kind of high-fidelity mechanism for inheritance that gets mixed-together in sexual reproduction. We even know where the information in DNA comes from: the selection environment.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: That's strange, because the theory of punctuated equillibrium says that evolution can happen very quickly, so quickly in fact that this explains why we don't see any evidence for it in the fossil record.

What does punctuated equilibrium have to do with being able to predict novel species on an island?

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: So this is all very variable according to evolutionists.

It does seem to make intuitive sense that evolution would go faster when selection pressures change.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: In any case, I don't deny speciation;

Thanks for mentioning that, some other things you've said make more sense in that context.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: that is how the world was repopulated after the flood. It is something that can happen very quickly even according to evolutionary theory,

Um, not THAT quickly. It takes thousands of generations, even if punctuated equilibrium is correct. New species could have evolved in the time frame of the flood if they had very short generations, but it's hard to explain critters like koalas that way.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: and our own observations. You have your long age assumptions about continental drift, I have my young age assumptions, and speciation could support either.

I can respect a disagreement on how fast evolution can occur more than complete dismissal of it.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Secular culture is opposed to Christianity, it doesn't tolerate it. It will tolerate Islam though.

Now you're just being snippy. Muslims shouldn't be allowed to do anything Christians aren't allowed to, and Christians should be able to do anything anyone else can so long as it doesn't involve getting government endorsement for their religion or prosyletizing a captive audience of other people's children.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: You can explain mechanisms all day long, which does not speak to agency. Since you don't know where the Universe came from, or how it got here, or why it is the way it is, you are left with an incomplete explanation. You simply cannot say the Universe does not require God to operate when you don't know why it operates. If you think you can then explain the uniformity in nature.

The argument from ignorance bascially takes the form of 'if you don't know the answer to 'X', my answer is correct'. I explain the uniformity in nature by the absence of an omnipotent deity capable of changing the rules at will.

OK, must run, end of this installment.

Final installment:

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: The barrier to sinning is how much you love God and trust in Him.

Hm. By that measure, it seems many Christians love God and trust in Him less than many nonChristians.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: I try to avoid labels. I think stereotypes make you stereotypical. I love everyone, even the ones who hate me, even the ones who are outwardly despicable.

It's good to avoid painting with too broad a brush.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: The church is apostate, and thus, it is looking more and more like the world every day.

I think the truly pious are always a minority in any religion. Most people are who they are at their core no matter the veneer of their beliefs.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: You don't realize the spiritual nature of all things, especially beliefs. It's entirely possible for people to come to illegitimate conclusions about their own beliefs, because most people don't understand the nature of their own beliefs. You take that as evidence that they have no actual reason for their beliefs beyond some delusion they are experiencing. For those who do not know God, they are experiencing a delusion, but a carefully engineered delusion.

I'll give you my theory on it. God controls everything, and that includes access to truth. That knowing truth is actually a priviledge. Your particular access will determine who you meet and what experiences you will have, and what you take from those experiences. You will find an entire Universe of meaning there, and so you won't notice that your access is actually tightly controlled. What determines your access level is your openness to truth. Inherently, what keeps you closed to truth are positions you take which you rationalize as being intellectual but are actually predicated on things like: what you hate, what you lust for, what you lie about it, what you hide, your many sins, etc..all of your unreasonable emotionally laden baggage, guilt, and secret sins you carry around from life. The evil you have done compromises your ability to reason and know truth.

God is always giving you opportunities to attain a higher access level and get closer to the ultimate truth (that Jesus is Lord), opportunities which test your character and inherent fairness and balance towards truth. He gives you access to real truth, but if you reject it, you are conversely left with nothing but lies, and these seem as truth. You also have temptations, and the more you succumb to them, the more the deluded you become; the more you sin the less able you are to reason and attain to truth. Sin literally makes you a moron.

That's just a general thought, not meant to be theology. It actually supports your theory in some ways and explains confirmation bias, but not for any reason you speculate.

Sounds unfalsifiable in principle; which means there's no way to tell if it's really true or not through evidence and reason.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: The evidence will come when you believe, and it will come, in my case, before I believed. The question is, where is it coming from. You think belief ends in the brain, but it is spiritual and extends into the spiritual realms. Regardless of what you're saying, the apostles had lunch with the resurrected Jesus on the beach, so either it's made up or they were with Him.

Or mistaken about Jesus being dead. Even Jesus wouldn't be in a position to know he'd only been in a coma. But made-up does sound more plausible than actually having lunch with someone who was really dead but got better.

I seem to be in a Catch 22. I won't believe in disembodied spirits and the supernatural without evidence for them; but I don't get the evidence unless I believe first. I won't convince myself for you, because I believe I'm fully capable of convincing myself that something false is true if I put down my rubbish filters first. If it makes you feel any better, my rubbish filters have also kept me from trying out Hare Krishna, Scientology, homeopathy, Wicca, and Mormonism from the inside.

PS: Apologies for messing up one of the quotes in my previous post, too much time has passed for me to fix it.

(February 16, 2012 at 4:46 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Final installment:

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: The barrier to sinning is how much you love God and trust in Him.

Hm. By that measure, it seems many Christians love God and trust in Him less than many nonChristians.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: I try to avoid labels. I think stereotypes make you stereotypical. I love everyone, even the ones who hate me, even the ones who are outwardly despicable.

It's good to avoid painting with too broad a brush.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: The church is apostate, and thus, it is looking more and more like the world every day.

I think the truly pious are always a minority in any religion. Most people are who they are at their core no matter the veneer of their beliefs.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: You don't realize the spiritual nature of all things, especially beliefs. It's entirely possible for people to come to illegitimate conclusions about their own beliefs, because most people don't understand the nature of their own beliefs. You take that as evidence that they have no actual reason for their beliefs beyond some delusion they are experiencing. For those who do not know God, they are experiencing a delusion, but a carefully engineered delusion.

I'll give you my theory on it. God controls everything, and that includes access to truth. That knowing truth is actually a priviledge. Your particular access will determine who you meet and what experiences you will have, and what you take from those experiences. You will find an entire Universe of meaning there, and so you won't notice that your access is actually tightly controlled. What determines your access level is your openness to truth. Inherently, what keeps you closed to truth are positions you take which you rationalize as being intellectual but are actually predicated on things like: what you hate, what you lust for, what you lie about it, what you hide, your many sins, etc..all of your unreasonable emotionally laden baggage, guilt, and secret sins you carry around from life. The evil you have done compromises your ability to reason and know truth.

God is always giving you opportunities to attain a higher access level and get closer to the ultimate truth (that Jesus is Lord), opportunities which test your character and inherent fairness and balance towards truth. He gives you access to real truth, but if you reject it, you are conversely left with nothing but lies, and these seem as truth. You also have temptations, and the more you succumb to them, the more the deluded you become; the more you sin the less able you are to reason and attain to truth. Sin literally makes you a moron.

That's just a general thought, not meant to be theology. It actually supports your theory in some ways and explains confirmation bias, but not for any reason you speculate.

Sounds unfalsifiable in principle; which means there's no way to tell if it's really true or not through evidence and reason.

(February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am)brotherlylove Wrote: The evidence will come when you believe, and it will come, in my case, before I believed. The question is, where is it coming from. You think belief ends in the brain, but it is spiritual and extends into the spiritual realms. Regardless of what you're saying, the apostles had lunch with the resurrected Jesus on the beach, so either it's made up or they were with Him.

Or mistaken about Jesus being dead. Even Jesus wouldn't be in a position to know he'd only been in a coma. But made-up does sound more plausible than actually having lunch with someone who was really dead but got better.

I seem to be in a Catch 22. I won't believe in disembodied spirits and the supernatural without evidence for them; but I don't get the evidence unless I believe first. I won't convince myself for you, because I believe I'm fully capable of convincing myself that something false is true if I put down my rubbish filters first. If it makes you feel any better, my rubbish filters have also kept me from trying out Hare Krishna, Scientology, homeopathy, Wicca, and Mormonism from the inside.

PS: Apologies for messing up one of the quotes in my previous post, too much time has passed for me to fix it.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I was not trying to outdo you; your last reply to me was quite lengthy, and I was just trying to answer everything you asked of me. We are simultaneously speaking about many different subjects, some which are quite deep. I too must budget my time so I will answer all of this in the next couple of days. I have enjoyed our discussion and I appreciate the effort you have put into it.

---

(February 15, 2012 at 9:49 am)Rhythm Wrote: Did you manage to find either of those words in the texts you imagined them to be in yet BL? I see you've spent plenty of time on responses. I'm feeling left out. Have we progressed to the drive-by claims and quote mining portion of our adventure already?

I apologize but I lost track of what we were talking about Rhythm. Correct me if I am wrong though, but isn't your position "God isn't there, the end"? There doesn't seem to be much room for a conversation there. Let me ask you this; if Christianity were true, would you be a Christian?

(February 16, 2012 at 7:28 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: Let me ask you this; if Christianity were true, would you be a Christian?

If there was hard evidence that Christianity were true, then I would believe it; however, you CHOOSE to worship a mean unjust asshole of a god that favors rape, violence, human sacrifice, slavery, etc, etc. Which is a choice I can't justify.

(February 16, 2012 at 7:46 pm)Nebuloso Wrote:

(February 16, 2012 at 7:28 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: Let me ask you this; if Christianity were true, would you be a Christian?

If there was hard evidence that Christianity were true, then I would believe it; however, you CHOOSE to worship a mean unjust asshole of a god that favors rape, violence, human sacrifice, slavery, etc, etc. Which is a choice I can't justify.

I wouldn't worship such a God either. I worship a God that is loving and merciful, and does not delight in the death of the wicked. I choose to worship Him because He is worthy of worship, and I am very grateful to Him for my life and for His love.

I admit, there are things which are difficult to understand in the Old Testament. Actions that God took, which, on their face, may seem to paint God as cruel and unjust. I think though that you miss the entire narrative. Did you not notice the wickedness of the people God brought His judgement against? The warnings that God gave before hand? Much of what is happening in the Old Testament is a narrative about mans rebellion against God. Sometimes He would give nations hundreds of years to repent before He did anything. The caananites, for example, sacrificed their children to baal, and practiced canibalism and He gave them 400 years.

You also miss everything Jesus Christ said or did. I think when you're considering Christianity you must consider, foremost, the words and deeds of Jesus Christ. The question is, was He God? Did He die for the sin of the world or was He simply misguided? Is He risen? These are the questions that are relevant to Christianity. Atheists only seem to want to talk about what they find in the Old Testament, when there are explanations for those things, but when it comes to the obvious love and perfection of Jesus, they are universally silent. It only seems to be about excuses not to believe instead of the substance of Jesus Christ, and who He really is.

Difficult to understand!?!?!?! How wicked is a rape victim? So wicked for being raped that they must be put to death? The man must die here too but only because it was someones wife. Otherwise, its okay.

From Deuteronomy:

22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

And all your new testament is, is just another person putting a modern twist on the religion because human morals had evolved and the book was still the same. Which is in fact, the same thing that is still being done today and the same thing that you are trying to do here.

Looks like someone thinks an argument from verbosity has any validity. Guess he never heard of an Argumentum Verbosium or what is more commonly known as a Gish Gallop. This always is a last ditch effort to save face before mental capitulation.

(February 16, 2012 at 8:40 pm)Nebuloso Wrote: Difficult to understand!?!?!?! How wicked is a rape victim? So wicked for being raped that they must be put to death? The man must die here too but only because it was someones wife. Otherwise, its okay.

From Deuteronomy:

22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

And all your new testament is, is just another person putting a modern twist on the religion because human morals had evolved and the book was still the same. Which is in fact, the same thing that is still being done today and the same thing that you are trying to do here.

What that is describing is consensual sex..they are both adulterers. That's fairly obvious, especially when you consider the very next verses:

Deuteronomy 22:25-26

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

Have you read the bible, at least the new testament all the way through? Jesus Christ was not putting a modern spin on anything, He fulfilled prophecy and said He was God incarnate. It's not a reinterpretation of the Old Testament, it is Gods revelation to the world.

(February 16, 2012 at 10:37 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: What that is describing is consensual sex..they are both adulterers. That's fairly obvious, especially when you consider the very next verses:

Deuteronomy 22:25-26

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

Have you read the bible, at least the new testament all the way through? Jesus Christ was not putting a modern spin on anything, He fulfilled prophecy and said He was God incarnate. It's not a reinterpretation of the Old Testament, it is Gods revelation to the world.

And if you keep reading it says that if you rape a girl you have to pay her 50 bucks and marry her.

We can play this game all day and get nowhere. You already admitted that the OT is ugly. I admit its my fault for bringing a bible verse to argument.

As far as the NT goes, yes, I have read it and aside from human sacrifice, I will admit there are some good lessons but they are not lessons that can't be learned without reading them or even knowing of Jesus. Therefore, that gives them no justification.

Bottom line is there is no good reason to worship your god and no good reason to believe that any of it is true.

(February 16, 2012 at 11:40 pm)Nebuloso Wrote:

(February 16, 2012 at 10:37 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: What that is describing is consensual sex..they are both adulterers. That's fairly obvious, especially when you consider the very next verses:

Deuteronomy 22:25-26

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

Have you read the bible, at least the new testament all the way through? Jesus Christ was not putting a modern spin on anything, He fulfilled prophecy and said He was God incarnate. It's not a reinterpretation of the Old Testament, it is Gods revelation to the world.

And if you keep reading it says that if you rape a girl you have to pay her 50 bucks and marry her.

We can play this game all day and get nowhere. You already admitted that the OT is ugly. I admit its my fault for bringing a bible verse to argument.

As far as the NT goes, yes, I have read it and aside from human sacrifice, I will admit there are some good lessons but they are not lessons that can't be learned without reading them or even knowing of Jesus. Therefore, that gives them no justification.

Bottom line is there is no good reason to worship your god and no good reason to believe that any of it is true.

I said no such thing. I said that some things are hard to understand, and might on their face seem cruel and unjust.

Yes, if you keep reading, you will find out that a man who raped a virgin must marry her..if she and her father agree to it. It doesn't mean she is going to be forced to marry him, it only means that he *must* marry her and stay married to her forever, if that is what she wants. This is what I mean by things which are hard to understand and on their face seem cruel and unjust. Not only are you looking at an entirely different culture, in an entirely different time, at rules which were made for that culture and that time, but you don't understand Gods role in the affairs of mankind, or Christian theology. You must understand at least these basic things before you have the tools to interpret scripture, and even then it will be difficult.

I will also correct you here; Jesus was not a human sacrifice. Would you call a man who died in the hospital of third degree burns after running into a burning building to save someones life a human sacrifice? In the same way, Jesus died for us. He took the punishment for our sins, and He never did anything wrong. He didn't have to go to the cross; He did it out of love for us and for His Father.. Even if it were just you, He still would have gone.

If everyone followed His teachings, this world would be as close to a utopia as you could get without God being here. You want to say no big deal, that's fine..but no one has changed the world more than He has, and in ways most people do not realize. Check this out sometime:

http://www.amazon.com/Book-that-Made-You...496&sr=8-1

But that isn't the issue..the question is, is He risen? Scripture claims He rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of power. He said that when He went to be with His Father that He would send us the Holy Spirit. When I became a Christian I received the Holy Spirit, just as He promised. This verifies His words and it is something you can verify for yourself.