I have reasons for believing that the four canonical Gospels weren't written by Apostles at all. Some of the evidence comes directly from some of the Gospels. But the reason why I can't readily accept the authorship of the Gospels from what Church tradition tells us is because it can't be verified.

There once was a maze inside a pyramid built by the Aztecs. The explorer that discovered the maze tells you that there is a statue made of gold on the other side of the maze. Being a fellow explorer yourself, you want to go see this thing with your own eyes. So you set out into the maze to try and get to the other side. In the end you give up because you couldn't find a path that would take you to the other side. So, how did this explorer know of this statue? You can't confirm or deny what he told you.

Church tradition tells us that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote their own Gospels. So far there isn't a single path of evidence that will take you to this conclusion and therefore verify the claim that the Church has made.

Centuries have passed and the explorer and you are long dead. A new generation of explorers have taken on the challenge of being able to get to the other side of the maze and seeing the statue. They know of The Explorer that discovered the maze and knew about the golden statue, so it must be there.

It seems as though the Church was the only body of people that knew of the authorships somehow. Because it seems as though there is no path one can take to 'get to the other side', it is in fact impossible to verify the authorship of the Gospels. Then why should we take this claim seriously?

Have you seen the golden statue?

(April 29, 2012 at 10:43 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I have reasons for believing that the four canonical Gospels weren't written by Apostles at all. Some of the evidence comes directly from some of the Gospels. But the reason why I can't readily accept the authorship of the Gospels from what Church tradition tells us is because it can't be verified.

There once was a maze inside a pyramid built by the Aztecs. The explorer that discovered the maze tells you that there is a statue made of gold on the other side of the maze. Being a fellow explorer yourself, you want to go see this thing with your own eyes. So you set out into the maze to try and get to the other side. In the end you give up because you couldn't find a path that would take you to the other side. So, how did this explorer know of this statue? You can't confirm or deny what he told you.

Church tradition tells us that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote their own Gospels. So far there isn't a single path of evidence that will take you to this conclusion and therefore verify the claim that the Church has made.

Centuries have passed and the explorer and you are long dead. A new generation of explorers have taken on the challenge of being able to get to the other side of the maze and seeing the statue. They know of The Explorer that discovered the maze and knew about the golden statue, so it must be there.

It seems as though the Church was the only body of people that knew of the authorships somehow. Because it seems as though there is no path one can take to 'get to the other side', it is in fact impossible to verify the authorship of the Gospels. Then why should we take this claim seriously?

Have you seen the golden statue?

Giving up so soon?

What of those who find what it is that they ask and seek for?

Along the lines of your analogy.. What do you say to all of those who have found the golden statue you could not find?

I have found it, and point to the path I took to find it. the problem is that you do not seem to want to go down that path because of all that you think you will have to give up to get to the end.

The bible is just one part of a bigger picture. God offers to give you direct instruction and reassurance personally if you only meet Him on His terms.

Drich Wrote:Along the lines of your analogy.. What do you say to all of those who have found the golden statue you could not find?

Show me the way, which no one has.

Quote:I have found it, and point to the path I took to find it. the problem is that you do not seem to want to go down that path because of all that you think you will have to give up to get to the end.

It would be nice if my faith was restored, as what I lost as a consequence of my lack of faith would be restored.

Following the path of reason was never going to be easy I realised, but I cannot lie to myself. If anyone tells me there's X at the other side of the maze and I can't see it for myself, then I can't accept it as truth. I just can't lie to myself.

Quote: God offers to give you direct instruction and reassurance personally if you only meet Him on His terms.

And what is that? To just accept the 'golden statue' really is there?

(April 29, 2012 at 11:57 am)Drich Wrote: the problem is that you do not seem to want to go down that path because of all that you think you will have to give up to get to the end.

Untrue. I know many Christians who disagree with my beliefs, but that partake in every activity I partake in. They drink alcohol, attend R-rated movies, listen to heavy rock music (not the christian bands either), they do all the regular things that I do and they have great faith in their silly god. They are every bit the True Christian that you profess to be. Clearly, I would have to give up very little to subscribe to christianity as I am not a thief, a glutton, a pedophile or a philanderer. In fact, near as I can tell, the only sin I'm regularly guilty of is blasphemy.

The reason I don't accept your god has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with giving up my current activities. It has everything to do with the fact that it is really really really really stupid.

(April 29, 2012 at 11:57 am)Drich Wrote: God offers to give you direct instruction and reassurance personally if you only meet Him on His terms.

A few things about this...

1. If God is so great, loving, caring, etc., why would I have to meet him on his terms? Does God not love me for who I am, on my terms?
   
2. Why makes you think he is a "he" at all?
   
3. What direct instruction can God provide... Does he use GMail? Can he be contacted by mail?
   

(April 29, 2012 at 12:09 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Show me the way, which no one has.

Why do you assume you were on the wrong path? By you own estimations you were on the right path. What I am suggesting is that Perhaps, you were not on that path long enough to reach your goal.

Quote: If anyone tells me there's X at the other side of the maze and I can't see it for myself, then I can't accept it as truth. I just can't lie to myself.

Do you personally know how your refrigerator works? The A/C in your house? How Your Car works? The Airplane when you fly? Or do you simply accept that other do and accept it as truth?

What's the difference? Maybe because you haven't experienced God as you expected? What if you were using one of the things I mentioned earlier in a way not consistent with how it was designed to work? Like: Using your fridge to cook your food. Or your A/C to shower? Because you can not shower with your A/C system, does it mean your A/C does not work? That those who do understand how it works are "not telling themselves the truth?"

Perhaps you could not find God in your effort because you were not looking for God in a way consistent with what the bible teaches.

Quote:And what is that? To just accept the 'golden statue' really is there?

No, to simply ask seek and knock as directed by Luke 11, and He will let Himself be known.

---

(April 29, 2012 at 1:08 pm)The Heff Wrote: A few things about this...
If God is so great, loving, caring, etc.,

Our understanding of God's love is greatly misunderstood. God offers a very specific type of Love.

Quote:why would I have to meet him on his terms?

Because He said so. If the leader of your country wanted to speak with you or have you over for a state dinner would you be in a position to dictate terms to him/her?

Quote:Does God not love me for who I am, on my terms?

No.

Quote:[*]Why makes you think he is a "he" at all?

He said so.

Quote:[*]What direct instruction can God provide...

The bible.

Quote:Does he use GMail? Can he be contacted by mail?

not email, Prayer.

---

(April 29, 2012 at 12:09 pm)Cinjin Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 11:57 am)Drich Wrote: the problem is that you do not seem to want to go down that path because of all that you think you will have to give up to get to the end.

Untrue. I know many Christians who disagree with my beliefs, but that partake in every activity I partake in. They drink alcohol, attend R-rated movies, listen to heavy rock music (not the christian bands either), they do all the regular things that I do and they have great faith in their silly god. They are every bit the True Christian that you profess to be. Clearly, I would have to give up very little to subscribe to christianity as I am not a thief, a glutton, a pedophile or a philanderer. In fact, near as I can tell, the only sin I'm regularly guilty of is blasphemy.

The reason I don't accept your god has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with giving up my current activities. It has everything to do with the fact that it is really really really really stupid.

Not speaking to you, or your friends. I addressed one very specific person in a very specific set of circumstances.

(April 29, 2012 at 7:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Do you personally know how your refrigerator works? The A/C in your house? How Your Car works? The Airplane when you fly? Or do you simply accept that other do and accept it as truth?

What's the difference?

Therefore god?

I can't stop laughing, my ribs are killing me, I've actually heard everything now!



You kill me Drich.

Quote:I have reasons for believing that the four canonical Gospels weren't written by Apostles at all.

Umm, which planet did you say you were from?

(April 29, 2012 at 7:48 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 7:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Do you personally know how your refrigerator works? The A/C in your house? How Your Car works? The Airplane when you fly? Or do you simply accept that other do and accept it as truth?

What's the difference?

Therefore god?

I can't stop laughing, my ribs are killing me, I've actually heard everything now!



You kill me Drich.

Please tell me you are just giving me the business and really do not understand...

Just in case,
Therefore no one has a chance of understanding God unless you meet Him on His terms and not your own. Like the person trying to cook with his A/C, he has no chance cooking food on an appliance in a way not consistent with how the system was designed. Now just because the fool can not cook food with his A/C system it does not mean the A/C system is not working exactly how it was designed.

In short the operators short comings does not disprove the existence of God. It just points to the operators short comings.

Drich Wrote:Why do you assume you were on the wrong path? By you own estimations you were on the right path. What I am suggesting is that Perhaps, you were not on that path long enough to reach your goal.

I was still going with what I said in the OP, which is the authorships of the Gospels. I don't think there is a path that will make you arrive at the 4 names which we have so readily accepted.

Quote:Do you personally know how your refrigerator works? The A/C in your house? How Your Car works? The Airplane when you fly? Or do you simply accept that other do and accept it as truth?

What's the difference? Maybe because you haven't experienced God as you expected? What if you were using one of the things I mentioned earlier in a way not consistent with how it was designed to work? Like: Using your fridge to cook your food. Or your A/C to shower? Because you can not shower with your A/C system, does it mean your A/C does not work? That those who do understand how it works are "not telling themselves the truth?"

Good analogy. If I wanted to learn how something worked I would read the manual. The problem is that the 'manual' for God has been written by people whose 'qualifications' I cannot verify i.e. were they really witnesses? For all I know, they could not qualified to tell me how God works.

Quote:No, to simply ask seek and knock as directed by Luke 11, and He will let Himself be known.

According to who? Anonymous #3?