If you're looking for a thread for the purpose of bashing scouting, this is not that thread. This thread is more about how much, if any, compromise on your personal principles is acceptable to achieve what you think is a greater good. This post is a little TL;DR, but I think necessarily so.

My 10 year old son is active in scouting (he's a 2nd year Webelo in Cub Scouts and will cross over to Boy Scouts next year). Allowing him to participate is not in question - it's something that's important to him, and it's been a positive experience. Of all the different activities he's tried, this is one that he loves (besides video games and sitting in front of the computer for hours).

Some of the leadership in his pack has approached me to ask me to act as a merit badge counselor for the Boy Scout troop, in addition to what I have done so far on an ad hoc basis when I participate in scouting events with my son. I'm good with kids, and have sufficient knowledge / expertise in half a dozen or so merit badge subjects.

Two things concern me about this (which are probably obvious): The BSA's position on participation by avowed homosexuals and atheists. My only personal experience with how these policies are implemented is at a local level, where they are effectively a non-issue (which is somewhat surprising considering my son lives with his mother in a predominately conservative religious rural community. In practice in his area, the attitude is one of "don't make an issue of it, and we won't either". At a national level, the organization is inclusive of all spiritual beliefs, including pagan, polytheist faiths, and pan-deism/theism as well as beliefs such as atheistic forms of Buddhism. The policy appears to encourage some form of spiritual belief, and allows the individual to define what that means. There's no requirement to believe in a personal deity, supreme being, or creator - only that one has some form of spiritual belief.

So I'm faced with a small dilemma. It's important to me to be an active participant in my son's interests, and as he doesn't live with me and our time together is limited, his scouting activities are going to be a sizable part of that time. I enjoy working with and teaching the kids, and a lot of the activities are just plain fun.

On the other hand, I do not care for the BSA's exclusionary policies even though they are not as hard line (particularly at a local level) in practice as many may believe.

As long as he's in cub scouts, it's not really much of an issue - at that level, parents are more involved in that they are encouraged to guide the scout and can sign off on badge requirements. At the boy scout level, it becomes more individual and they've got to go through merit badge counselors for mentoring and to be signed off on the requirements. Volunteers such as merit badge counselors are required to agree with the BSA Declaration of Religious Principle, though given the broad definition of spirituality, I have no problem with calling myself a "Naturalistic Pandeist" if asked (quantum mechanics as god FTW, all hail the holy Shroedinger's Cat, blessed be the Higgs boson).

I'm not usually one to compromise on matters of personal principle. Were it not for my son and my desire to remain a part of his interests, my involvement would be out of the question. I think that in this case, compromise serves the greater good of maintaining (and hopefully increasing) the level of involvement in my son's life, and that consideration outweighs my personal objections.

Were you in a similar general position (not necessarily related to scouting), what do you think you would do?

I find it very difficult to engage myself with any organisation that has a religious undertone like that. I think I'd try to involve myself in some other aspect of my kid's life, if it were me (not that I'm at all saying you're wrong, I get the predicament).

Quote:if any, compromise on your personal principles is acceptable to achieve what you think is a greater good.

What do you mean by "the common good"? If you mean some amorphous mass of anonymous others I don't care about,their interests invariably come a poor second to my own. I DID sometimes compromise 'for my mates' in the army and will sometimes do so for my family and others I care about.

I have no problems saying 'no' if asked to do something I don't want to do,and do not usually offer an excuse.

However, I agree with you about the bigotry in the scouting movement. For that reason I would not allow my child to join,period. Seeing you have already compromised your principles in allowing your son to join the scouts,I think you have an obligation to him to support him in any way possible,including direct involvement. I'm having trouble understanding your apparent hypocrisy,so I'm guessing a ten year old might too.

I would keep on with the Scouts (if it were me) take on the mentoring tasks and when #1 son is finished THEN tell them all about how atheist you were the whole time.

I discouraged my kids from joining ANY pseudo-religious group. Thankfully they were far too individualistic for group activities anyway.

My son is 17 months old and as of now, he will not be allowed to join the boy scouts because I disagree with their religious ways and discrimination. That being said, if he gets to the cub scout age and really wants to join I'd imagine that it'll be hard for me not to let him. I'd probably give in and let him but I'm not going to encourage it. If I was in your position I would let them know you're atheist up front so there's less chance of it coming back at you later, especially of he really enjoys it.

Interestingly, the BSA here in Arizona have undergone a schism. There is a divide between self-proclaimed "traditionalists," who carry on the original BS ideology and the side that has been co-opted by the Mormons. Personally, I find great humor and irony in this. Would I allow my son to join? No.

Quote:I discouraged my kids from joining ANY pseudo-religious group.

I didn't have kids,so I discouraged my Godson. I figured his parent's chronic Catholicism was enough of a cross for him to bear. (ahem) .

Found something interesting today: Seems the original British Fascist Party (1923) took some of its ideals from the Boy Scouts Movement.

Quote:The ideals of the Boy Scout movement, with which many early members had also been involved in their younger days, also played an important role as the British Fascisti wished, according to General R.B.D. Blakeney, to "uphold the same lofty ideas of brotherhood, service and duty".[1] At its formation at least the British Fascisti was positioned in the same right-wing conservative camp as the likes of the British Empire Union and the Middle Class Union and shared some members with these group

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Fascists

(May 6, 2012 at 7:42 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Were it not for my son and my desire to remain a part of his interests, my involvement would be out of the question. I think that in this case, compromise serves the greater good of maintaining (and hopefully increasing) the level of involvement in my son's life, and that consideration outweighs my personal objections.

Were you in a similar general position (not necessarily related to scouting), what do you think you would do?

i think i'd take into account what my kid thought about me being around their friends in that capacity. the decision would always be mine as the parent obviously, but social interaction is very important (imho) with their peers and i wouldn't want to hamper that. there's still always ways to let them participate in things like this and still teach them your way of doing things without letting them feel like they have to pick between parents' philosophies at a young age.

it sounds to me like you're a totally unselfish dad and that will give your words much more strength with him as he continues to grow.

(May 8, 2012 at 2:05 am)jackman Wrote: it sounds to me like you're a totally unselfish dad and that will give your words much more strength with him as he continues to grow.

^ this

We all need to beware indoctrination. I think a loving, supporting family ideal grants exposure to everything in order to gift the child true choice.

I went into boys brigade many years ago. My mum isn't very religious, in fact she doesn't really give a shit about it. My dad is an atheist and they had no problem with me joining the group. It was religious but I was oblivious to that fact. My dad said he'd support me whether I believed in god or not. I did marches through London and all that. Quite fun. I became aware that it was a religious thing but stayed because I enjoyed it. Long before I already had lengthy lectures about religion and even then wasn't convinced.

I left the boys brigade because I lost interest, also it didn't feel right pretending to be someone I'm not. The only ones trying to push me into some kind of belief was the religious.

Joining up as a young child into religious groups I don't think has affected me at all, I learnt more about it and helped me in making my mind up about it. I only went to church after the march, and the marches didn't happen often. I was entirely free to make up my own mind. I walked out of that religious group as an atheist. And I had never heard of the word 'atheist'. Just didn't believe what they were telling me. Still don't despite how much I've learnt over the many years. If anything I'm more sure about my stance on the existence of god than ever before.