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The Stage is Yours.
#11
RE: The Stage is Yours.
(July 4, 2012 at 8:20 pm)Napoleon Wrote: More Christians in Wales than there are Muslims. That's what makes fr0d0 a Christian and not a Muslim.

Oh yes, I agree but fr0d0 doesn't seem to concur. I'm wondering his reasons for thinking the Muslim interpretation false and his own correct.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die." 
- Abdul Alhazred.
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#12
RE: The Stage is Yours.
(July 4, 2012 at 7:36 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Technically, I was actually attributing complexity to my belief in some kind of an intelligence or a mind in the universe which would be God/Allah/or whatever name you want to call it. I never said that complexity necessarily implies the existence of God, though, unlike you where you simply said that the Christian God "necessarily exists as the only reasonable conclusion" without providing any reasoning.
Technically you did exactly what i said. You mix up empiricism with metaphisics. Intelligence = scientific facts = link to allah. (I mean this as no insult here)

I didn't provide details, no. It is my assertion that all conclusions lead back to god. They don't lead back to no god. I'm not condemning any other world view there, just laying down the criteria. If you believe that your own view works out, and I hope you do, I haven't found that.


(July 4, 2012 at 7:36 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Also, you haven't pointed out exactly which of my scientific claims are in conflict according to your opinion and/or why they are in conflict. Easier said than done. Wink

Well ive seen many Islamic presentions claiming scientific precedence from koranic texts. I'm sure you're very aware of these.

(July 4, 2012 at 8:25 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote:
(July 4, 2012 at 8:20 pm)Napoleon Wrote: More Christians in Wales than there are Muslims. That's what makes fr0d0 a Christian and not a Muslim.

Oh yes, I agree but fr0d0 doesn't seem to concur. I'm wondering his reasons for thinking the Muslim interpretation false and his own correct.

I don't object. We are all products of our environnent. Given mine precisely though, I dont think you'd easily see me becoming a theist.
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#13
RE: The Stage is Yours.
(July 4, 2012 at 6:40 pm)Rayaan Wrote: *steps in shyly*

Well, I don't think that there is any solid and undeniable evidence for the existence of God. However, I do believe that there are possible clues (or signs) of His existence. And some of those clues are present in things that we see every day such as the variety of living things, the plants, the foods that we eat, the water that we drink, sex, reproduction, our brains, our hearts, emotions, intelligence, consciousness, the earth, and many other things. To me, all of these things are clues for the existence of God, or the existence of something intelligent operating in the universe, whether it is a person, a program, a field of consciousness, or whatever it is. In other words, I believe that there is a mind behind all of this and not simply a result of blind and accidental forces because that seems very unlikely to me although still possible.

Then how do you explain why in the vast solar system, there are billions of planets that get constantly smashed by asteroids. Does that serve this God a purpose? And how can these be clues to God's existence. There is more out there than just Earth and humans, you know. We are truly an anomaly.
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#14
RE: The Stage is Yours.
(July 4, 2012 at 8:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(July 4, 2012 at 7:36 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Technically, I was actually attributing complexity to my belief in some kind of an intelligence or a mind in the universe which would be God/Allah/or whatever name you want to call it. I never said that complexity necessarily implies the existence of God, though, unlike you where you simply said that the Christian God "necessarily exists as the only reasonable conclusion" without providing any reasoning.
Technically you did exactly what i said. You mix up empiricism with metaphisics. Intelligence = scientific facts = link to allah. (I mean this as no insult here)

I didn't provide details, no. It is my assertion that all conclusions lead back to god. They don't lead back to no god. I'm not condemning any other world view there, just laying down the criteria. If you believe that your own view works out, and I hope you do, I haven't found that.


(July 4, 2012 at 7:36 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Also, you haven't pointed out exactly which of my scientific claims are in conflict according to your opinion and/or why they are in conflict. Easier said than done. Wink

Well ive seen many Islamic presentions claiming scientific precedence from koranic texts. I'm sure you're very aware of these.

(July 4, 2012 at 8:25 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Oh yes, I agree but fr0d0 doesn't seem to concur. I'm wondering his reasons for thinking the Muslim interpretation false and his own correct.

I don't object. We are all products of our environnent. Given mine precisely though, I dont think you'd easily see me becoming a theist.

Right so you admit the main reason you're a Christian is because you were born in a country where Christianity is dominant?
If so how can you claim your religion to be anymore plausable than Rayaans or any others for that matter?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die." 
- Abdul Alhazred.
Reply
#15
RE: The Stage is Yours.
(July 4, 2012 at 6:40 pm)Rayaan Wrote: *steps in shyly*

Well, I don't think that there is any solid and undeniable evidence for the existence of God.

You're damn right there.

Quote: However, I do believe that there are possible clues (or signs) of His existence.

Oh really? Let's hear it then!

Quote: And some of those clues are present in things that we see every day such as the variety of living things

How?

Quote:the plants

How?

Quote:the foods that we eat

How?

Quote: the water that we drink

How?

Quote:sex

Fair does, I shout "God!" when I'm cumming,possible tenuous link to evidence of god right there - or maybe not.

Quote: reproduction

How?

Quote: our brains

How?

Quote: our hearts

How?

Quote: emotions

How?

Quote:intelligence

How?

Quote: consciousness

How?

Quote: the earth

How?

Quote:and many other things.

Like what?

Oh, and how?

Quote: To me, all of these things are clues for the existence of God, or the existence of something intelligent operating in the universe, whether it is a person, a program, a field of consciousness, or whatever it is. In other words, I believe that there is a mind behind all of this and not simply a result of blind and accidental forces because that seems very unlikely to me although still possible.

Evolution explains a lot of this and it IS evidence based, and evolution isn't all about "accidents" either, but adaptation.

Quote:I don't actually know what is Allah (or God). As Muslims, we only claim to know Allah's secondary attributes (which are mentioned in the Quran), but we do not know Allah's primary attribute as the Quran says, "No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things" (6:103). And He doesn't show Himself to us directly, but we believe that He manifests Himself in other ways, i.e. through the Prophets, the scriptures, and through His creations.

Just a load of made up gobbledegook to me, mate. And I always find the "he is above all comprehension" to be...convenient.

It's like carte blanche to say "if you don't understand it, it's god"

Quote:If God revealed Himself, then there wouldn't be any value or reward in believing in Him because He already showed Himself. It would be kind of like giving away the answer.

Children do better logic than this.

Instead of claiming that if he revealed himself it would fuck everything up because then you wouldn't need to believe in him (did you really say that Rayaan?), why not just contemplate that knowledge is better than belief?

Certainly knowing god (or anything) is real > believing it.

Quote:I don't think that it's possible to prove God through logical arguments either. Why? Because to do that we have to know certain things and/or qualities of God which are not possible to know, and therefore, we can't be too sure if all the premises are true or not. We have to understand God's essential nature (or His primary attribute) before we attempt to form any ontological proofs, but that is not possible since God is something/someone beyond our comprehension.

But then the question is, what are the reasons for me thinking that this specific god and this specific religion is most likely to be true out of all the other ones?

I've made a much longer post where I answered that question and I put down more of my ideas in the thread below:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-11855.html

So, we don't know any of gods attributes for sure, and don't know if we're working from a true premise because of that, and thus we believe?

Erm, no.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.

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#16
RE: The Stage is Yours.
(July 4, 2012 at 9:15 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Right so you admit the main reason you're a Christian is because you were born in a country where Christianity is dominant?
If so how can you claim your religion to be anymore plausable than Rayaans or any others for that matter?

Don't be a jerk lol.
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#17
RE: The Stage is Yours.
Quote:I do believe that there are possible clues (or signs) of His existence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGFjrsfaa...re=related
Couldn't resist. Tongue

Quote:And some of those clues are present in things that we see every day such as the variety of living things, the plants, the foods that we eat, the water that we drink, sex, reproduction, our brains, our hearts, emotions, intelligence, consciousness, the earth, and many other things. To me, all of these things are clues for the existence of God
Seems to me you conclude that a god must be responsible because you don't know any better. God of the gaps. You don't know and so you use god to fill in the gaps. Variety of living things can be explained through evolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxDOpAM2FrQ
I love symphony of science! Big Grin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZGINaRUE...ure=relmfu

Water is hydrogen and oxygen which are among the most common elements in the universe. Each can be explained easily and in detail.

Quote:I believe that there is a mind behind all of this and not simply a result of blind and accidental forces because that seems very unlikely to me although still possible.
12 possibles of matter, 4 forces of nature and over 13.7 billion years of interaction. We understand how planets form, know how suns function, we know how life evolves and we're discovering more and more about how particles function and their effects. Don't actually need a god to explain anything.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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#18
RE: The Stage is Yours.
(July 4, 2012 at 8:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Technically you did exactly what i said. You mix up empiricism with metaphisics. Intelligence = scientific facts = link to allah. (I mean this as no insult here)

The existence of an "intelligence" that I was talking about are based on my own inductive reasoning of the world around me and not something that I came to conclude based on scientific facts nor experimentation. So, I don't think that this is empiricism, but mainly a metaphysical view.

I know that you believe that there is no empirical evidence of God (which I don't disagree with either), but then what are some of your metaphysical arguments? Do you have any?

(July 4, 2012 at 8:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I didn't provide details, no. It is my assertion that all conclusions lead back to god. They don't lead back to no god. I'm not condemning any other world view there, just laying down the criteria. If you believe that your own view works out, and I hope you do, I haven't found that.

"All conclusions lead back to god." <- Well, that seems like a very vague critera unless you specify what are some of those conclusions and demonstrate how they "necessarily" imply that only the Chrisitian God is real.

My own view works and I explained this in great length in this thread. This was a mixture of both science and metaphysics (physics being one of the branches of metaphysics since metaphysics essentially deals with the fundamental nature of reality).

(July 4, 2012 at 8:44 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Well ive seen many Islamic presentions claiming scientific precedence from koranic texts. I'm sure you're very aware of these.

They Quran may contain certain scientific information, but I never consider it as a "book of science," because teaching science is not the purpose of the book at all. Rather, the Quran is primarily meant to be a moral and a spiritual guideline. It is a text that seeks to engage the inner dimensions of man and to build his relationship with Allah through faith and worship.

The main reason that science is included in the Quran is to make us think and reflect on how God created nature so beautifully and wisely, not necessarily to imply that they are scientific discoveries that no one knew before. There are many verses in the Quran that illustrate some of the phenomenons of the natural world such as the planets orbiting the sun, the stars, the alternation of the night and day, the various animals in this planet, the intricacies of our own psychological and physiological development, and the embryological stages, and so on.

These things are included just to remind us that these are some of the signs of God's existence which, again, relates to my argument from design/complexity.


(July 4, 2012 at 8:51 pm)ElijahDrew Wrote: Then how do you explain why in the vast solar system, there are billions of planets that get constantly smashed by asteroids. Does that serve this God a purpose? And how can these be clues to God's existence. There is more out there than just Earth and humans, you know. We are truly an anomaly.

Yes, we may be an anomaly and most of the universe may be dark and lifeless. There are many other planets (which may or may not contain life), there are many other stars, many other solar systems, many other galaxies, clusters, superclusters, and so on. The universe is very big and it is expanding at an accelerating speed. Maybe there are even other universes, or multiverses, and maybe there are also extra dimensions that are hidden from our naked eyes and even the most powerful instruments.

But, still, none of that subtracts or dimishes the beauty and the complexity of the variety of life and structures that exist in this small planet of ours.


Norfolk And Chance, I value knowledge also, but I don't agree with your opinion that knowledge is greater than belief. A lot of our beliefs are connected to our knowledge as well as to our experiences, and thus beliefs are also very important, in my opinion. I think of belief more as a mental state than anything else. And I think that one's beliefs may even be dependant on his or her intuition and reasoning.

So, while knowledge deals with facts and concrete information, belief is something that is subjective and it is a summation of all of our mental aspects (along with our knowledge) that are not constrained by our five senses, and that's why I think that belief is deeper than knowledge (although the former we are never sure of).

@ all of your "How"s:

My point was that, in my opinion, it seems more likely that there is an intelligence or a mind that made it possible for all these complex things such as our genes, DNA, cells, our brains, our consciousness, the different plants and trees, the variety of foods for us, the variety of animals, and so on. You're asking me "how" as if you want me to tell you how all of this stuff proves that God did it, but that is not provable, nor did I ever say that they prove the existence of God, but only that these things are hints or clues for the existence of God (or something intelligent), in my opinion.

I strongly believe in evolution, too, but the idea of evolution doesn't necessarily negate the idea that the laws of evolution itself were created by a higher intelligence.


@ Ace: ^ See my comments above in regards to evolution.
Also, the fact that we are understanding more and more about the universe does not necessarily exclude God's existence either.
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#19
RE: The Stage is Yours.
(July 5, 2012 at 4:59 am)Rayaan Wrote: Also, the fact that we are understanding more and more about the universe does not necessarily exclude God's existence either.

It doesn't exclude the possibility of a god or gods, however it does remove the necessity for a god. If the universe does not require a god to create it, then there's no necessity for a god to exist. It doesn't disprove god's existence, it simply supports the fact that a god isn't needed and so his very existence is unnecessary.

Knowledge, I still think is the greatest threat to religion.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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#20
RE: The Stage is Yours.
(July 4, 2012 at 6:46 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: The Christian God neccessarily exists as the only reasonable conclusion (world view). All other conclusions fail.


[Image: Wat8.jpg]

Also, evolution IS the greatest show on earth now that House has ended.
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