I just wondered, of all the Christians here, how many actually believe the following..

1. Heaven is a real place you go to when you die.
   
2. In order to get there you must be a Christian.
   
3. If yes to the above, how could you enjoy heaven knowing that many good and kind people, perhaps friends and family are in hell?
   

1. Don't know. What's your definition of 'real'. It's a place your soul goes to. It's certainly a state you can aspire to whilst you're alive
2. No. The bible makes provision for those who haven't heard. If you know the truth but reject it... blah blah blah.
3. If my answer to 2 was yes, then heaven would be a place where you'd be together with God. Enter questions about God allowing suffering etc..

You say "if you know the truth but reject it", but what if I don't know the truth (as an agnostic I hold this as the most important philosophical position) yet reject the beliefs because I don't find them convincing.

Do you believe that honestly skeptical people go to Heaven? (in other words)

Aw heck... You can go in

I'd have to look into it. I don't think it's so cut and dried. Only you will know.. If you logically conclude your position then you are being truthful to you. You can do no more. If there's a choice between what would be understood by you to be the right thing to do, following what I (possibly you too) understand as Christ likeness, then in that sense, as a logical skeptic then certainly I believe that you'd go to heaven (/are already in heaven at that moment).

Ok, because it just seems like the only people who "know but reject" are complete idiots. It's like watching the truck bearing down on you and saying out loud "It's ok, I don't believe in trucks"

No. By living by Christs example (my terminology) you are acting like you believe, not like you don't believe, which is why you fulfill the criteria and why you get to heaven (also my terminology).

You see the truck bearing down on you and you get out of the way. The complete idiots doing the rejecting don't see the truck/ or reject it's existence.

Dar, I've heard so many answers given about your 3rd question.

Which of course in many debates the question would head off to, "What about the people around the world that did not know of a Jesus or Bible or yada yada yada...

The scripture that is normally given back for that is

Quote:KJV Romans 1:19-20

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So in other words, there are no excuses and whatever friends or family members that are in hell was their own doing and yes, even the rest of the world that "Apparently" refused to see god.

Oh I was always told that when you get to Heaven you don't remember your loved ones that went to hell. It's like they never existed. God takes all of your sadness and hurt away. It's like a permanent vacation where God dopes you up on Xanax and Prozac and you just chill on a cloud. It'd be nice if it were true.

I always asked about it and that was always the answer. I also felt it was completely retarded after hearing it but instead of wasting time arguing I'd just say "OK" and go on about my business.

(August 29, 2009 at 5:30 pm)Darwinian Wrote: I just wondered, of all the Christians here, how many actually believe the following ...

The difficulty I have with answering such questions is the host of hidden assumptions at back of them. Allow me to explain.

From what I have gathered so far during my time here: (1) most of the participants are non-Christian; (2) of those, nearly all are atheist; (3) of those, many are ex-Christian; (4) of those, a vast majority abandoned Christianity during their youth; (5) for nearly all of those, the Christianity they abandoned was a fundamentalist sort; i.e., the words of the Bible are literal truth, Jesus died for everybody's sin, reason is anathema to faith, if you pray the Sinner's Prayer you are saved, hell is a place that exists and people are burning there currently, etc. Consequently, I have good reason to be highly skeptical about the level of theological literacy found at this site.

Subsequently, I have no confidence in what you are thinking as you frame those questions—what you understand heaven to be, what you understand about who goes there, what you understand being a Christian means, why you think heaven and hell co-exist, etc. That is to say, I immediately suspect the probability that your questions mirror a Christian fundamentalist conception of these matters, given the aforementioned observations. What I can see happening is, I answer "yes" to these questions according to my level of theological understanding WHEREAS you interpret that "yes" according to your level of theological understanding (be what it may) and, for all I know, I have then said something I had no intention of meaning. Hence, the difficulty.

It is a discussion I enjoy exploring with fellow Christians because there is no antithesis at work, but with atheists who may be ex-Christians from an early age it is an equivocal minefield that I hesitate to step into. I would explore it in a sincere, private discussion conducive to a suitable pace, but not in a public arena where vociferous anti-theists can drown authentic dialogue with vitriolic invective.

(September 5, 2009 at 9:13 pm)Arcanus Wrote: The difficulty I have with answering such questions is the host of hidden assumptions at back of them. Allow me to explain.

So, a variant on the no true Scotsman fallacy then?

Kyu